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Apple's New Privacy Page

78 points by andrewgioia 7y ago

byteshock 7y ago
Privacy coming from Apple is laughable. If you have an iPhone and have location services on ( which most of us do) go to location settings and check “system services”. Google what those services actually do. They’re all for sending unnecessary location data to Apple for analytics, which is all enabled by default. They claim to respect your privacy, but under the hood it’s a different story.
byteshock 7y ago
Privacy coming from Apple is laughable. If you have an iPhone and have location services on ( which most of us do) go to location settings and check “system services”. Google what those services do. They’re all for sending unnecessary location data to Apple for analytics, which is all enabled by default. They claim to respect your privacy, but under the hood it’s a different story.
bibbitybobbity 7y ago
I don't think privacy works when I don't trust Apple period. They have done shady anti consumer things like decreasing battery life. This feels like lip service till I see implementation details(and even then I want to see the code).
- StevenRayOrr 7y ago
  When you say "implementation details", do you mean things like their Safari Privacy White Paper[0], their Photos Tech Brief[1], their Location Services White Paper[2], or their Apple Sign On White Paper[3]? [0]: https://www.apple.com/safari/docs/Safari_White_Paper_Nov_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/safari/docs/Safari_White_Paper_Nov_201... [1]: https://www.apple.com/ios/photos/pdf/Photos_Tech_Brief_Sept_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/ios/photos/pdf/Photos_Tech_Brief_Sept_... [2]: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Location_Services_White_Paper_Nov_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Location_Services_White_P... [3]: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Sign_in_with_Apple_White_Paper_Nov_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Sign_in_with_Apple_White_...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - thanatos_dem 7y ago
    No no no, they mean things that confirm their biases.
- t-writescode 7y ago
  By decreasing battery life, do you mean decreasing performance so the battery doesn’t prematurely die? I think most of us admit they could have relayed it to users better; but, what they did was far from nefarious. If you mean something else, I’m curious.
- x2f10 7y ago
  >They have done shady anti consumer things like decreasing battery life. I was under the impression they throttled devices with poor batteries to _increase_ battery life.
- dewey 7y ago
  They throttled the phones with bad batteries so the peak energy usage doesn’t exceed what the battery can provide and shuts down the phone. But unfortunately people just remember the click bait headlines.
- zepto 7y ago
  No story anywhere describes Apple decreasing battery life. They have sometimes reduced performance in order to increase battery life.
trca 7y ago
Those animations videos are so well done, very pleasing to the eye to watch
- rchaud 7y ago
  I was in the desktop site on Chrome and I didn't see any animations.
jakejarvis 7y ago
Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with the progress Apple has made in spearheading consumer privacy practices — but unfortunately, half of the benefits listed here are negated by the fact that my iCloud backups are fully unencrypted (or "encrypted" with a common key that Apple holds; same thing in my view). So, if I want convenient nightly backups (without plugging my phone in and using the "new" Catalina apps, which I'm still convinced are just new iTunes skins), Apple — and adversaries — will still have unfettered access to all my iMessages, Maps history, photos, health records, almost everything listed here and more [0][1]. Tim Cook has claimed a fix is coming for a while now [2], but meanwhile using iCloud for its intended purpose is a huge, and largely unadvertised, gaping hole in Apple's otherwise impressive privacy promises. :( [0] https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/2/11144588/walt-mossberg-apple-vs-fbi-iphone-icloud-loophole https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/2/11144588/walt-mossberg-app... [1] https://www.cellebrite.com/en/productupdates/move-your-investigations-forward-with-data-from-icloud-and-samsung-backups/ https://www.cellebrite.com/en/productupdates/move-your-inves... [2] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/28/eff-user-encrypted-icloud-backups-apple/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/28/eff-user-encrypted-iclo...
- thephyber 7y ago
  > if I want convenient nightly backups (without plugging my phone in ...) I haven't found a need for iCloud. I get regular (daily?) backups to my Apple desktops/laptops over WiFi -- it works after you pair the mobile device with the desktop once and check the sync over WiFi box.
- ls612 7y ago
  It’s largely only a hole against state level adversaries, which may not be a realistic element of many people’s threat model.
  - bberenberg 7y ago
    State being anyone who can get a court order, including another company or individual with legal grounds to peruse you.
  - deleted 7y ago
ssfrr 7y ago
"Messages are only seen by who you send them to." - Unless that person shares an Apple ID with someone else. I recently sent an iMessage and got a "who is this?" response. Turns out the message went to one of their family members. I guess they shouldn't be sharing an Apple ID, but I don't think it's a super crazy thing to do among family members (e.g. a parent who provides a phone for their child), and having private text messages go to the wrong person seems like a pretty bad failure mode.
- sparkywolf 7y ago
  Apple protects the message in transit. What you are talking about is the equivalent of letting someone borrow your phone, then getting mad when your carrier delivers sms messages to your phone number while someone else was holding your phone. Apple has done their part, it's up to the users to enforce security of their endpoints as well.
- maineldc 7y ago
  Are you saying that 2 people logged into iMessages on 2 devices with the same Apple ID and you want only one of those people to see an iMessage? How would that work? I either don't understand the scenario you are describing or I don't understand the failure mode you mention?
  - ssfrr 7y ago
    My intended recipient doesn't actually have an iPhone (but I didn't know that at the time). In my contacts I have both their phone number and their email address, and I'm assuming that email is what's associated with their Apple ID. I normally don't pay much attention to whether a message is being sent out over iMessage or SMS, and less technical folks probably pay even less, so it's a bad situation when those two methods end up going to different people. That said, I'm actually not sure what the best behavior for iOS would be here - I get that they want to use the "best" transport and send over iMessage rather than SMS if it's available. Ideally there would be some kind of warning if the phone number I have in my contacts doesn't match the one on the device that's going to receive the message, but that seems finicky as well (what if I only have their land-line?).
084537 7y ago
Apple cares more about privacy than, e.g., Google, for sure, but it is extremely complicated to use an iOS device without an Apple ID, and Apple employs "know your customer" logic that caused me to give up after a few hours trying to create an Apple ID not connected with my real name and credit card.
- newscracker 7y ago
  Not sure what you tried and from which location, but Apple doesn’t need the real name or a valid payment method for creating an account to be used for purchases. Such an account can be used to get all the free apps and content on its stores. On the other side, does stock Android allow one to use a phone without creating a Play Store account and associating it for other services from Google? I’m just curious how that works. I’d presume that Google doesn’t need a payment method or one’s real name either.
  - californialife 7y ago
    I rejected buying an iPhone because I could not find reliable information saying how to use one without an account. By contrast it's easy on Android. Follow the "skip" path. Of course then you can't get access to the play store for apps, but there are other sources for apps.
    - thephyber 7y ago
      > there are other sources for apps. From my perspective, your threat model is strange. I'm most concerned with (1) the device and the OS preventing me from accidentally installing malware in the App Store, (2) preventing drive-by malware from the web browser, (3) secure against physical tampering. High assurance authentication (Touch ID, Face ID, etc) is nice, although the account+device registration+provisioning does prevent me from being anonymous to my phone manufacturer+provider, but I have no expectation of that on a smart phone anyway. If I needed anonymity, I would prefer a prepaid burner be a feature phone with no apps at all. I don't use iCloud because I don't think it fits within my current threat model. That which is synced to Apple servers (beyond my account/authentication info) is banal stuff. If I needed a more secure communication system, I would use an app specifically designed for it and not owned by an Apple/Facebook, although I'm not sure any lawful company can resist something like a National Security Letter. The best policy is simply not to hand over the content, so it's not subject to the Third Party Doctrine (as flawed as it is). If a nation-state is attacking me, the best option I have is not to have a listening and tracking device on me all the time and probably to use offline-only devices.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
type0 7y ago
> What you share from those experiences, and who you share it with, should be up to you. They should have added this: ultimately it's up to you to trust us, you don't control Apple devices, we do :-) and we make decisions that are best for you - just give us money.
dagdesheren 7y ago
Privacy my ass. Allow me to setup MY phone without a ping back to the mothership, and allow us to side-load apps or download free apps from the store without an apple ID.
- thephyber 7y ago
  > allow us to side-load apps It's a feature to me that I can't accidentally download an (potentially hostile) app from a (potentially hostile) app store, but a bug.
  - m45t3r 7y ago
    > It's a feature to me that I can't accidentally download an (potentially hostile) app from a (potentially hostile) app store, but a bug. I don't really understand this point. It is not like Android implementation of side load is insecure. As a user, you need to explicitly enable it in settings. After Android 8 I think, each application that tries to install a application is blocked first and need an explicitly permission too. Even with all that, you still need to explicitly consent installation and upgrade of any sideloaded application. Nothing is automatic.
- t-writescode 7y ago
  Does Ubuntu phone home during installation? Even for something like ‘increment total install count by one’?

78 points by andrewgioia 7y ago

Privacy coming from Apple is laughable. If you have an iPhone and have location services on ( which most of us do) go to location settings and check “system services”. Google what those services actually do. They’re all for sending unnecessary location data to Apple for analytics, which is all enabled by default. They claim to respect your privacy, but under the hood it’s a different story.

byteshock 7y ago

Privacy coming from Apple is laughable. If you have an iPhone and have location services on ( which most of us do) go to location settings and check “system services”. Google what those services do. They’re all for sending unnecessary location data to Apple for analytics, which is all enabled by default. They claim to respect your privacy, but under the hood it’s a different story.

bibbitybobbity 7y ago

I don't think privacy works when I don't trust Apple period. They have done shady anti consumer things like decreasing battery life. This feels like lip service till I see implementation details(and even then I want to see the code).

StevenRayOrr 7y ago
When you say "implementation details", do you mean things like their Safari Privacy White Paper[0], their Photos Tech Brief[1], their Location Services White Paper[2], or their Apple Sign On White Paper[3]? [0]: https://www.apple.com/safari/docs/Safari_White_Paper_Nov_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/safari/docs/Safari_White_Paper_Nov_201... [1]: https://www.apple.com/ios/photos/pdf/Photos_Tech_Brief_Sept_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/ios/photos/pdf/Photos_Tech_Brief_Sept_... [2]: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Location_Services_White_Paper_Nov_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Location_Services_White_P... [3]: https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Sign_in_with_Apple_White_Paper_Nov_2019.pdf https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Sign_in_with_Apple_White_...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- thanatos_dem 7y ago
  No no no, they mean things that confirm their biases.
t-writescode 7y ago
By decreasing battery life, do you mean decreasing performance so the battery doesn’t prematurely die? I think most of us admit they could have relayed it to users better; but, what they did was far from nefarious. If you mean something else, I’m curious.
x2f10 7y ago
>They have done shady anti consumer things like decreasing battery life. I was under the impression they throttled devices with poor batteries to _increase_ battery life.
dewey 7y ago
They throttled the phones with bad batteries so the peak energy usage doesn’t exceed what the battery can provide and shuts down the phone. But unfortunately people just remember the click bait headlines.
zepto 7y ago
No story anywhere describes Apple decreasing battery life. They have sometimes reduced performance in order to increase battery life.

trca 7y ago

Those animations videos are so well done, very pleasing to the eye to watch

rchaud 7y ago
I was in the desktop site on Chrome and I didn't see any animations.

jakejarvis 7y ago

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed with the progress Apple has made in spearheading consumer privacy practices — but unfortunately, half of the benefits listed here are negated by the fact that my iCloud backups are fully unencrypted (or "encrypted" with a common key that Apple holds; same thing in my view). So, if I want convenient nightly backups (without plugging my phone in and using the "new" Catalina apps, which I'm still convinced are just new iTunes skins), Apple — and adversaries — will still have unfettered access to all my iMessages, Maps history, photos, health records, almost everything listed here and more [0][1]. Tim Cook has claimed a fix is coming for a while now [2], but meanwhile using iCloud for its intended purpose is a huge, and largely unadvertised, gaping hole in Apple's otherwise impressive privacy promises. :( [0] https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/2/11144588/walt-mossberg-apple-vs-fbi-iphone-icloud-loophole https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/2/11144588/walt-mossberg-app... [1] https://www.cellebrite.com/en/productupdates/move-your-investigations-forward-with-data-from-icloud-and-samsung-backups/ https://www.cellebrite.com/en/productupdates/move-your-inves... [2] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/28/eff-user-encrypted-icloud-backups-apple/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/28/eff-user-encrypted-iclo...

thephyber 7y ago
> if I want convenient nightly backups (without plugging my phone in ...) I haven't found a need for iCloud. I get regular (daily?) backups to my Apple desktops/laptops over WiFi -- it works after you pair the mobile device with the desktop once and check the sync over WiFi box.
ls612 7y ago
It’s largely only a hole against state level adversaries, which may not be a realistic element of many people’s threat model.
- bberenberg 7y ago
  State being anyone who can get a court order, including another company or individual with legal grounds to peruse you.
- deleted 7y ago

ssfrr 7y ago

"Messages are only seen by who you send them to." - Unless that person shares an Apple ID with someone else. I recently sent an iMessage and got a "who is this?" response. Turns out the message went to one of their family members. I guess they shouldn't be sharing an Apple ID, but I don't think it's a super crazy thing to do among family members (e.g. a parent who provides a phone for their child), and having private text messages go to the wrong person seems like a pretty bad failure mode.

sparkywolf 7y ago
Apple protects the message in transit. What you are talking about is the equivalent of letting someone borrow your phone, then getting mad when your carrier delivers sms messages to your phone number while someone else was holding your phone. Apple has done their part, it's up to the users to enforce security of their endpoints as well.
maineldc 7y ago
Are you saying that 2 people logged into iMessages on 2 devices with the same Apple ID and you want only one of those people to see an iMessage? How would that work? I either don't understand the scenario you are describing or I don't understand the failure mode you mention?
- ssfrr 7y ago
  My intended recipient doesn't actually have an iPhone (but I didn't know that at the time). In my contacts I have both their phone number and their email address, and I'm assuming that email is what's associated with their Apple ID. I normally don't pay much attention to whether a message is being sent out over iMessage or SMS, and less technical folks probably pay even less, so it's a bad situation when those two methods end up going to different people. That said, I'm actually not sure what the best behavior for iOS would be here - I get that they want to use the "best" transport and send over iMessage rather than SMS if it's available. Ideally there would be some kind of warning if the phone number I have in my contacts doesn't match the one on the device that's going to receive the message, but that seems finicky as well (what if I only have their land-line?).

084537 7y ago

Apple cares more about privacy than, e.g., Google, for sure, but it is extremely complicated to use an iOS device without an Apple ID, and Apple employs "know your customer" logic that caused me to give up after a few hours trying to create an Apple ID not connected with my real name and credit card.

newscracker 7y ago
Not sure what you tried and from which location, but Apple doesn’t need the real name or a valid payment method for creating an account to be used for purchases. Such an account can be used to get all the free apps and content on its stores. On the other side, does stock Android allow one to use a phone without creating a Play Store account and associating it for other services from Google? I’m just curious how that works. I’d presume that Google doesn’t need a payment method or one’s real name either.
- californialife 7y ago
  I rejected buying an iPhone because I could not find reliable information saying how to use one without an account. By contrast it's easy on Android. Follow the "skip" path. Of course then you can't get access to the play store for apps, but there are other sources for apps.
  - thephyber 7y ago
    > there are other sources for apps. From my perspective, your threat model is strange. I'm most concerned with (1) the device and the OS preventing me from accidentally installing malware in the App Store, (2) preventing drive-by malware from the web browser, (3) secure against physical tampering. High assurance authentication (Touch ID, Face ID, etc) is nice, although the account+device registration+provisioning does prevent me from being anonymous to my phone manufacturer+provider, but I have no expectation of that on a smart phone anyway. If I needed anonymity, I would prefer a prepaid burner be a feature phone with no apps at all. I don't use iCloud because I don't think it fits within my current threat model. That which is synced to Apple servers (beyond my account/authentication info) is banal stuff. If I needed a more secure communication system, I would use an app specifically designed for it and not owned by an Apple/Facebook, although I'm not sure any lawful company can resist something like a National Security Letter. The best policy is simply not to hand over the content, so it's not subject to the Third Party Doctrine (as flawed as it is). If a nation-state is attacking me, the best option I have is not to have a listening and tracking device on me all the time and probably to use offline-only devices.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

type0 7y ago

> What you share from those experiences, and who you share it with, should be up to you. They should have added this: ultimately it's up to you to trust us, you don't control Apple devices, we do :-) and we make decisions that are best for you - just give us money.

dagdesheren 7y ago

Privacy my ass. Allow me to setup MY phone without a ping back to the mothership, and allow us to side-load apps or download free apps from the store without an apple ID.

thephyber 7y ago
> allow us to side-load apps It's a feature to me that I can't accidentally download an (potentially hostile) app from a (potentially hostile) app store, but a bug.
- m45t3r 7y ago
  > It's a feature to me that I can't accidentally download an (potentially hostile) app from a (potentially hostile) app store, but a bug. I don't really understand this point. It is not like Android implementation of side load is insecure. As a user, you need to explicitly enable it in settings. After Android 8 I think, each application that tries to install a application is blocked first and need an explicitly permission too. Even with all that, you still need to explicitly consent installation and upgrade of any sideloaded application. Nothing is automatic.
t-writescode 7y ago
Does Ubuntu phone home during installation? Even for something like ‘increment total install count by one’?