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They were also trying to locate bin Laden in Pakistan through use of sham vaccination programs that were actually taking DNA samples. As a result the loss of tr

They were also trying to locate bin Laden in Pakistan through use of sham vaccination programs that were actually taking DNA samples. As a result the loss of trust caused Polio to go from the cusp of eradication to back with a vengeance. I like the claims with al-Baghdadi's n-th death being DNA confirmed. US obtained a supposed blood sample of al-Baghdadi from his right hand man in return for a promise of $25 million and US residency for himself and his entire family. Then, someone in a tunnel, unseen by anyone other than a dog, was blown up by an explosive belt, leaving no remains but small chunks that could be identified. These were then DNA confirmed to be identical to whoever the blood sample was taken from.

nkrisc 7y ago
What source have you read that said there were no remains? Depending on how exactly he blew himself up, there might very well be identifiable remains intact, such as extremities or even the head.
stef25 7y ago
Not a blood sample (EDIT yes a blood sample). His underwear was stolen so his shart remnants could be DNA tested. This by someone close to him who wanted revenge and of course 25 mill. The mole was managed by the SDF who communicated with the US. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50218637 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50218637
- droithomme 7y ago
  https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/baghdadi-monday-dle-intl/h_adf177edc96155b37561e2e08cdce505 https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/baghdadi-monday-d... > The informant also obtained Baghdadi’s underwear and blood sample that was used for the DNA test to confirm his identity before the raid took place. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kurdish-source-provided-key-intel-operation-killed-isis-leader-abu-n1072921 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kurdish-source-provided-k... > U.S. intelligence tested those samples and got positive DNA matches for al-Baghdadi, kicking the hunt into high gear. The informant stole the underwear about three months ago and the blood sample was taken roughly one month ago, a Kurdish official said. Curiously the articles suggest they used the blood sample in advance of the raid to confirm it was al-Baghdadi, with no suggestion of what they were comparing it to.
  - stef25 7y ago
    Thanks for the correction. I believe the sample was compared to one they obtained when he was in custody in Camp Bucca.
    - droithomme 7y ago
      > when he was in custody in Camp Bucca OK, thanks, I was unaware of that. You've changed my mind on the issue that we don't really know who the guy in the tunnel was. So we really did get him. Captured Feb. 4, 2004 as a civilian and released that Dec. 8 as he was seen as no threat. https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jun/19/jeanine-pirro/foxs-pirro-obama-set-isis-leader-free-2009/ https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jun/19... https://www.businessinsider.com/abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-declassified-iraq-prison-file-2015-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-declass... > "Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim Al Badry, also known as ‘Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi’ was held as a ‘civilian internee’ by U.S. Forces-Iraq from early February 2004 until early December 2004, when he was released," the Pentagon said in a statement. "He was held at Camp Bucca. A Combined Review and Release Board recommended ‘unconditional release’ of this detainee and he was released from U.S. custody shortly thereafter. We have no record of him being held at any other time." This is also interesting. He didn't start at Bucca: https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-isis-leader-was-held-in-notorious-abu-ghraib-prison/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-is...
      - freeflight 7y ago
        > This is also interesting. He didn't start at Bucca: That's also a way to not mention the fact that he also served time in the infamous Abu Ghraib prison around the same time the reports on the on-going torture there were finalized. As such there's a very good chance he not only witnessed but also experienced that [0] kind of torture, just like neither Abu Ghraib, nor Bucca were exceptions during that time [1]. In that context, it wasn't just a random coincidence how ISIS paraded their prisoners around in "horrible orange suits", as Trump put it, completely missing the reference [2], like many US Americans. [0] http://100photos.time.com/photos/sergeant-ivan-frederick-hooded-man http://100photos.time.com/photos/sergeant-ivan-frederick-hoo... (NSFW) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_prison_abuse_scandals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_prison_abuse_scandals [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainee_uniforms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainee_unifor...
blotter_paper 7y ago
I mean, the vaccines were real. They were just also a front for a government sponsored DNA heist. Given the actions of the US government, it seems reasonable in the current political climate to refuse vaccines and other on-site medical treatment if you don't want your DNA stolen. In recognition of the communal failure to protect privacy which has led to these programs being potential DNA theft operations, vaccination providers should start letting people take their needles home to self-administer vaccines. Whether or not it's likely in any given case is irrelevant, the government used medicine to steal DNA so now we can't trust medicine. Medicine needs to reinvent itself so that vaccines can be widely deployed without risking further data breaches, and the only way they can really do that is by not collecting the data -- even on a needle.
- daddylonglegs 7y ago
  ISTR that the vaccines offered needed several applications spaced over days or weeks; and that the CIA agent did not return to administer the follow up shots. So the vaccines were real but ineffectively administered. You could create a culture of - after every injection - sterilising the needles in the presence of the injectee. This would be moderately burdensome but wouldn't avoid the need for blood samples for medical diagnostics so wouldn't really protect against malicious actors taking the role of medical professionals. That sort of behaviour simply shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, not even spies. As pointed out in other threads, the DNA of your relatives is almost certainly in multiple databases already and that will probably be enough to identify you (or at least narrow things down to a few people). We need laws and cultural standards (in all the cultures) for how that information is controlled and used but I have no idea how we get there.
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    First paragraph: I don't recall reading that in any of the coverage I saw at the time, but I'm not super skeptical of this claim. Second paragraph: if I don't trust the magician/doctor not to make the needle reappear after it goes in the waste basket, I don't see why I would trust them to not substitute some other liquid for the sterilizing fluid. Even an on-site incenerator is hard to trust, if we're assuming CIA involvement. These people actually hired a magician (John Mulholland) to write a document explaining magician stagecraft to CIA officers as part of the MK-ULTRA program -- they tried to destroy it when they realised congress was going to request those documents, but a copy survived and got republished decades later. I wouldn't trust my own eyes to notice when a well trained agent swapped needles in front of me, and I can't imagine any on-site procedure I would trust as much as taking a needle home with me. As for blood tests, I don't see why I should have to opt into these to recieve vaccines. Medicine can be modular. Third paragraph: I get that the cat is out of the bag for most people in my country -- I have second-degree relatives who are already in the database. This isn't (yet?) the case for many people living in the third world, which is where most of the backlash to this practice actually occured. I also think that insisting on practices that make future generations more difficult to track are reasonable, even if it will take some time for the genetics to get swashed around enough for these efforts to matter.

nkrisc 7y ago

What source have you read that said there were no remains? Depending on how exactly he blew himself up, there might very well be identifiable remains intact, such as extremities or even the head.

stef25 7y ago

Not a blood sample (EDIT yes a blood sample). His underwear was stolen so his shart remnants could be DNA tested. This by someone close to him who wanted revenge and of course 25 mill. The mole was managed by the SDF who communicated with the US. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50218637 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50218637

droithomme 7y ago
https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/baghdadi-monday-dle-intl/h_adf177edc96155b37561e2e08cdce505 https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/baghdadi-monday-d... > The informant also obtained Baghdadi’s underwear and blood sample that was used for the DNA test to confirm his identity before the raid took place. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kurdish-source-provided-key-intel-operation-killed-isis-leader-abu-n1072921 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/kurdish-source-provided-k... > U.S. intelligence tested those samples and got positive DNA matches for al-Baghdadi, kicking the hunt into high gear. The informant stole the underwear about three months ago and the blood sample was taken roughly one month ago, a Kurdish official said. Curiously the articles suggest they used the blood sample in advance of the raid to confirm it was al-Baghdadi, with no suggestion of what they were comparing it to.
- stef25 7y ago
  Thanks for the correction. I believe the sample was compared to one they obtained when he was in custody in Camp Bucca.
  - droithomme 7y ago
    > when he was in custody in Camp Bucca OK, thanks, I was unaware of that. You've changed my mind on the issue that we don't really know who the guy in the tunnel was. So we really did get him. Captured Feb. 4, 2004 as a civilian and released that Dec. 8 as he was seen as no threat. https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jun/19/jeanine-pirro/foxs-pirro-obama-set-isis-leader-free-2009/ https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jun/19... https://www.businessinsider.com/abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-declassified-iraq-prison-file-2015-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-declass... > "Ibrahim Awad Ibrahim Al Badry, also known as ‘Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi’ was held as a ‘civilian internee’ by U.S. Forces-Iraq from early February 2004 until early December 2004, when he was released," the Pentagon said in a statement. "He was held at Camp Bucca. A Combined Review and Release Board recommended ‘unconditional release’ of this detainee and he was released from U.S. custody shortly thereafter. We have no record of him being held at any other time." This is also interesting. He didn't start at Bucca: https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-isis-leader-was-held-in-notorious-abu-ghraib-prison/ https://theintercept.com/2016/08/25/u-s-military-now-says-is...
    - freeflight 7y ago
      > This is also interesting. He didn't start at Bucca: That's also a way to not mention the fact that he also served time in the infamous Abu Ghraib prison around the same time the reports on the on-going torture there were finalized. As such there's a very good chance he not only witnessed but also experienced that [0] kind of torture, just like neither Abu Ghraib, nor Bucca were exceptions during that time [1]. In that context, it wasn't just a random coincidence how ISIS paraded their prisoners around in "horrible orange suits", as Trump put it, completely missing the reference [2], like many US Americans. [0] http://100photos.time.com/photos/sergeant-ivan-frederick-hooded-man http://100photos.time.com/photos/sergeant-ivan-frederick-hoo... (NSFW) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_prison_abuse_scandals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_prison_abuse_scandals [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainee_uniforms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detainee_unifor...

blotter_paper 7y ago

I mean, the vaccines were real. They were just also a front for a government sponsored DNA heist. Given the actions of the US government, it seems reasonable in the current political climate to refuse vaccines and other on-site medical treatment if you don't want your DNA stolen. In recognition of the communal failure to protect privacy which has led to these programs being potential DNA theft operations, vaccination providers should start letting people take their needles home to self-administer vaccines. Whether or not it's likely in any given case is irrelevant, the government used medicine to steal DNA so now we can't trust medicine. Medicine needs to reinvent itself so that vaccines can be widely deployed without risking further data breaches, and the only way they can really do that is by not collecting the data -- even on a needle.

daddylonglegs 7y ago
ISTR that the vaccines offered needed several applications spaced over days or weeks; and that the CIA agent did not return to administer the follow up shots. So the vaccines were real but ineffectively administered. You could create a culture of - after every injection - sterilising the needles in the presence of the injectee. This would be moderately burdensome but wouldn't avoid the need for blood samples for medical diagnostics so wouldn't really protect against malicious actors taking the role of medical professionals. That sort of behaviour simply shouldn't be acceptable to anyone, not even spies. As pointed out in other threads, the DNA of your relatives is almost certainly in multiple databases already and that will probably be enough to identify you (or at least narrow things down to a few people). We need laws and cultural standards (in all the cultures) for how that information is controlled and used but I have no idea how we get there.
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  First paragraph: I don't recall reading that in any of the coverage I saw at the time, but I'm not super skeptical of this claim. Second paragraph: if I don't trust the magician/doctor not to make the needle reappear after it goes in the waste basket, I don't see why I would trust them to not substitute some other liquid for the sterilizing fluid. Even an on-site incenerator is hard to trust, if we're assuming CIA involvement. These people actually hired a magician (John Mulholland) to write a document explaining magician stagecraft to CIA officers as part of the MK-ULTRA program -- they tried to destroy it when they realised congress was going to request those documents, but a copy survived and got republished decades later. I wouldn't trust my own eyes to notice when a well trained agent swapped needles in front of me, and I can't imagine any on-site procedure I would trust as much as taking a needle home with me. As for blood tests, I don't see why I should have to opt into these to recieve vaccines. Medicine can be modular. Third paragraph: I get that the cat is out of the bag for most people in my country -- I have second-degree relatives who are already in the database. This isn't (yet?) the case for many people living in the third world, which is where most of the backlash to this practice actually occured. I also think that insisting on practices that make future generations more difficult to track are reasonable, even if it will take some time for the genetics to get swashed around enough for these efforts to matter.