5 ms·

The buried lede here is that "organic", as applied to food is itself a meaningless concept. It's just an ersatz religious practice. What assurance is there that

by prvc 7y ago

The buried lede here is that "organic", as applied to food is itself a meaningless concept. It's just an ersatz religious practice. What assurance is there that no glyphosate particles have found their way onto your artisanal apple grown in zebu manure?

thrower123 7y ago
The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden. Although when you've had the Japanese beetles or cutworm or potato bugs ravage your harvest, considerations about being 100% organic lose some of their weight and it takes a lot of commitment not to break out the rotenone or Sevin.
- prvc 7y ago
  >The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden. You still don't know in that case. It is not a question of trust, or the strictness of your standards. The problem is, more fundamentally, conceptual.
- wahern 7y ago
  > The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden Presuming you test your soil, first. Leaded paint and leaded gasoline have heavily contaminated large parts of residential land, especially those parts closest to buildings. Unlike with commercial produce where only a particular plant here or there may have come from a contaminated patch of land, if your garden is contaminated you're being exposed regularly. Similarly, even if all the land around you is pristine, who knows what a previous owner may have done at any particular spot. Maybe someone once stacked a dozen, leaky lead-acid batteries where you want to plant your garden. It's kind of unthinkable for many people today (if only because we're not a fix-it yourself society much anymore), but people regularly did dumb stuff like that years ago, and some still do today.
torgoguys 7y ago
And who is to say that organic carrot you're eating is any better for you. From a pesticide standpoint, almost all of the pesticides we eat (by weight) are natural and possible carcinogens. [1] A person's synthetic pesticide exposure is dwarfed by the natural pesticide chemicals the plants produce themselves (except for farm workers). Dose makes the poison--at the small levels we intake, with normal handling, risk is very low for both categories. (And don't get me on my soapbox about the villification of glyphosate--it's a shame). [1] Dietary pesticides, 99.99% all natural: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2217210/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2217210/
- eth0up 7y ago
  I'll climb on the soapbox. Glyphosate is great stuff. Good on sandwiches too. Hell, even Patrick Moore[1] does shots[2] of the stuff and he's almost perfect. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant) 2. https://time.com/3761053/monsanto-weed-killer-drink-patrick-moore-lobbyist/ https://time.com/3761053/monsanto-weed-killer-drink-patrick-... Edit: original comment was abridged by the benevolence of Verizon and their warm wireless affection for rural vermin. Rather than rewrite it, I'll capitulate and admire it as 'is'.
  - torgoguys 7y ago
    The not drinking glyphosate thing is way overblown. The best data we have says that eating Crayolas is safe. Young children do it all the time. They're non-toxic by design. That doesn't mean that I'm going to munch down a boxful if asked to. It isn't food. OF COURSE he didn't drink it. Again, it isn't food.
    - eth0up 7y ago
      Then consider allowing your children to merely gargle with glyphosate, and remove their crayon-eating privileges if they insist on persevering to digestive phases.
      - zaarn 7y ago
        The considered safe exposure is about one milligram per kilogram bodyweight, so your children should be fine gargling on about 20 to 50 milligrams of the stuff without issue (somewhere after that you reach norminal toxicity where it'll just kill you normally like 99.999% of the pesticides out there).
jbay808 7y ago
Some of us who purchase organic foods don't care about the impact on the food, but rather on the farm ecosystem. Pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers impact insect popuations, wash into rivers, and so on. It's nice to have an option to vote with our dollars in favour of more sustainable practices, even if the food isn't any healthier or tastier to eat.
- dx87 7y ago
  Organic foods are normally grown with organic pesticides that still harm the environment, but since the pesticides aren't synthetic, the food still keeps the organic label.
  - Nicksil 7y ago
    Organic herbicides and pesticides tend to be less effective, as well, thus requiring more frequent application using large farm equipment, belching exhaust and compacting the soil.

by prvc 7y ago

thrower123 7y ago

The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden. Although when you've had the Japanese beetles or cutworm or potato bugs ravage your harvest, considerations about being 100% organic lose some of their weight and it takes a lot of commitment not to break out the rotenone or Sevin.

prvc 7y ago
>The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden. You still don't know in that case. It is not a question of trust, or the strictness of your standards. The problem is, more fundamentally, conceptual.
wahern 7y ago
> The only way to know for sure is to plant your own garden Presuming you test your soil, first. Leaded paint and leaded gasoline have heavily contaminated large parts of residential land, especially those parts closest to buildings. Unlike with commercial produce where only a particular plant here or there may have come from a contaminated patch of land, if your garden is contaminated you're being exposed regularly. Similarly, even if all the land around you is pristine, who knows what a previous owner may have done at any particular spot. Maybe someone once stacked a dozen, leaky lead-acid batteries where you want to plant your garden. It's kind of unthinkable for many people today (if only because we're not a fix-it yourself society much anymore), but people regularly did dumb stuff like that years ago, and some still do today.

torgoguys 7y ago

And who is to say that organic carrot you're eating is any better for you. From a pesticide standpoint, almost all of the pesticides we eat (by weight) are natural and possible carcinogens. [1] A person's synthetic pesticide exposure is dwarfed by the natural pesticide chemicals the plants produce themselves (except for farm workers). Dose makes the poison--at the small levels we intake, with normal handling, risk is very low for both categories. (And don't get me on my soapbox about the villification of glyphosate--it's a shame). [1] Dietary pesticides, 99.99% all natural: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2217210/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2217210/

eth0up 7y ago
I'll climb on the soapbox. Glyphosate is great stuff. Good on sandwiches too. Hell, even Patrick Moore[1] does shots[2] of the stuff and he's almost perfect. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Moore_(consultant) 2. https://time.com/3761053/monsanto-weed-killer-drink-patrick-moore-lobbyist/ https://time.com/3761053/monsanto-weed-killer-drink-patrick-... Edit: original comment was abridged by the benevolence of Verizon and their warm wireless affection for rural vermin. Rather than rewrite it, I'll capitulate and admire it as 'is'.
- torgoguys 7y ago
  The not drinking glyphosate thing is way overblown. The best data we have says that eating Crayolas is safe. Young children do it all the time. They're non-toxic by design. That doesn't mean that I'm going to munch down a boxful if asked to. It isn't food. OF COURSE he didn't drink it. Again, it isn't food.
  - eth0up 7y ago
    Then consider allowing your children to merely gargle with glyphosate, and remove their crayon-eating privileges if they insist on persevering to digestive phases.
    - zaarn 7y ago
      The considered safe exposure is about one milligram per kilogram bodyweight, so your children should be fine gargling on about 20 to 50 milligrams of the stuff without issue (somewhere after that you reach norminal toxicity where it'll just kill you normally like 99.999% of the pesticides out there).

jbay808 7y ago

Some of us who purchase organic foods don't care about the impact on the food, but rather on the farm ecosystem. Pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers impact insect popuations, wash into rivers, and so on. It's nice to have an option to vote with our dollars in favour of more sustainable practices, even if the food isn't any healthier or tastier to eat.

dx87 7y ago
Organic foods are normally grown with organic pesticides that still harm the environment, but since the pesticides aren't synthetic, the food still keeps the organic label.
- Nicksil 7y ago
  Organic herbicides and pesticides tend to be less effective, as well, thus requiring more frequent application using large farm equipment, belching exhaust and compacting the soil.