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That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal f

That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal fabrication such as ignoring critical tolerances or broken welds. Considering how devastating it would be for a carabiner or ice axe to fail in the field it would be hard for me to trust outsourced manufacturing.

Loughla 7y ago
It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's. As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant. They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it. It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.
- dwoozle 7y ago
  This is highly rational behavior for hired CEOs — you’re there for 5-10 years and paid based on stock price, so it’s in your best interest to sell shoddy products under the venerable brand name in the highest quantities possible, and cash out before the market discovers that your brand name is worthless (cf all of the venerable kitchen brands like All-Clad and Wusthof that now have Chinese junk lines). This is why the father to son family business model may prove more enduring.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore.
    - alasdair_ 7y ago
      >All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore. If their comp package is weighted towards the five year term, they absolutely care about five years from now.
      - rubyn00bie 7y ago
        I doubt any CEO's compensation is tied to anything beyond five years; and, I bet even terms at five years are sparse limited to a few giant names who have to (like Tim Cook) otherwise the stock price would collapse and that's it. I'd like to add: there is no incentive for it either, shareholders want returns NOW, and so they want CEOs to act in their interest NOW. Most shareholders aren't looking at their "ownership" stake with compassion for employees at the company, or any form of responsibility to other stakeholders, but solely for their own bottom line.
        redblacktree 7y ago
        > shareholders want returns NOW I know this is the received wisdom, but as a shareholder, I emphatically do not want this. I want long-term value, as I am a long-term investor. I hate that I have to watch out for shady things like this and adjust my holdings accordingly.
        alasdair_ 7y ago
        >there is no incentive for it either, shareholders want returns NOW, and so they want CEOs to act in their interest NOW. Many of the biggest shareholders are major pension funds with 30 to 50 year time horizons. They absolutely do NOT want "returns NOW" with the implicit assumption that future quarters don't matter.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        They absolutely do NOT want "returns NOW" with the implicit assumption that future quarters don't matter. That is true but it is also true that they can’t risk waiting 30 years only to find their investment is worthless. Hence the insistence on quarterly reporting.
  - burkaman 7y ago
    I always thought this was a weird definition of "rational". If you're already rich, which I assume most hired CEOs are, why is prioritizing money over people a more rational decision? Is that money going to change their life in any meaningful way? Is it any less correct to say it's in their best interest to stop working as soon as they have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of their life, to minimize stress and maximize lifetime? I understand that it's rational behavior for someone driven exclusively by money, but that's an important qualification. Most people are not money robots, so they aren't given these jobs.
    - bsder 7y ago
      > If you're already rich, which I assume most hired CEOs are, why is prioritizing money over people a more rational decision? Generally, a non-founder CEO is a ferociously competitive person--probably to the point of being pathological. They often "play poker" in situations where there is very little upside to doing so. Great salespeople are often the same way, they simply can't turn it off. You are asking a leopard to change his spots after he has started eating the antelope.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - soledades 7y ago
        > pathological That was precisely the parent comment's point.
      - burkaman 7y ago
        I understand, I just don't think we should describe that behavior as "rational". In casual conversation, the word means "sensible, logic-driven decisions that any person with good judgement would take". Here we're describing behavior driven by a particular niche, unnatural rationale, and pretty much any behavior can be explained that way.
    - orclev 7y ago
      It's the corporate structure. The CEO either grows the year over year profits or he gets punished/fired by the board. Boards pick CEOs based on a history of delivering growth at any cost (this is one of the irrational decisions, they should prioritize long term growth over short term, but they rarely do). This in turn provides a strong incentive to CEOs to make bad long term decisions if it means short term gains, because they either won't be around to see the eventual collapse (having moved on to another CEO position) or else they take the long term plan and get fired by the board for not providing enough growth (or worse, reduction).
  - ajnin 7y ago
    I really dislike this kind of reasoning. Saying this is "highly rational" is saying the only value is money. Everything else can be set aside if it leads to more money. Even if people get hurt or worse using shoddy equipment. There is no place for empathy, at a sociopathic level. I'd think that a few millennia of civilization would give more value to notions of altruism, honesty, not constantly trying to scam your fellow man.
    - jschwartzi 7y ago
      This is a sort of "Ayn Rand'ian" rationality in which the only thing that matters is what you're getting out of the deal independently of how devoid of empathy your worldview is.
    - ip26 7y ago
      Yes, but we already know these positions tend to select for mildly sociopathic behavior in the first place...
    - _jal 7y ago
      It is "highly rational" in the sense that success at their chosen career means hitting financial targets defined over short time periods. The behavior won't change until the incentives do.
- rhizome 7y ago
  >It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing What sense of "hold up" are you using here, "support" or "delay?"
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    "Impede" is the way the word is being used; see definition 2 of the verb here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holdup https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holdup
    - Loughla 7y ago
      Correct
dv_dt 7y ago
It’s also crazy given China trade talks right now. Seems like at least something to postpone a year or so. Or maybe they already feel they have the shutoff options covered.
closetohome 7y ago
You couldn't pay me enough to climb on a Chinese-made belay device.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  Coming next to backcountry: commingling. Yes I have purchased climbing equipment on Amazon but I always felt bad about it.
- superhuzza 7y ago
  Given how common Black Diamond equipment is, almost all climbers have been belayed with a Chinese made ATC, carabiner or quickdraw... https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-produts-in-the-us-and-china-explained/ https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-pro...
catalogia 7y ago
The way it's been explained to me is that it's proportional to how much money you're spending. If you think you're getting a great deal from the Chinese, then the Chinese think it's reasonable to rip you off. Whereas a manufacture in another country might say: "For that little money, I won't do the job.", in China the answer is more like "For that little money, I'll do the job [but I'm going to rip you off, and for how little you're paying, you should already know you're going to get ripped off.]"
- DenisM 7y ago
  Any details about veracity? It’s the first I hear of it, and it’s rather interesting.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    Unfortunately I don't have more details; it's something I heard a few years ago from a Chinese coworker. He was explaining that quality products can be produced in China, but you have to pay for that quality just like anywhere else. And it happens that when American companies outsource to China, they're often looking for the cheapest bidder.
- ddingus 7y ago
  This is super interesting. The idea, "someone is always willing to make the money" is playing out in this unexpected way! Got any links for a person to learn more about this cultural difference?
mbostleman 7y ago
“QC issues” are not a variable I want to consider In climbing gear.
CydeWeys 7y ago
It seems like the liability issues here with life-critical equipment should make any lawyer put a hold on this idea, but apparently not?

Loughla 7y ago

It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's. As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant. They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it. It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.

dwoozle 7y ago
This is highly rational behavior for hired CEOs — you’re there for 5-10 years and paid based on stock price, so it’s in your best interest to sell shoddy products under the venerable brand name in the highest quantities possible, and cash out before the market discovers that your brand name is worthless (cf all of the venerable kitchen brands like All-Clad and Wusthof that now have Chinese junk lines). This is why the father to son family business model may prove more enduring.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    >All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore. If their comp package is weighted towards the five year term, they absolutely care about five years from now.
    - rubyn00bie 7y ago
      I doubt any CEO's compensation is tied to anything beyond five years; and, I bet even terms at five years are sparse limited to a few giant names who have to (like Tim Cook) otherwise the stock price would collapse and that's it. I'd like to add: there is no incentive for it either, shareholders want returns NOW, and so they want CEOs to act in their interest NOW. Most shareholders aren't looking at their "ownership" stake with compassion for employees at the company, or any form of responsibility to other stakeholders, but solely for their own bottom line.
      - redblacktree 7y ago
        > shareholders want returns NOW I know this is the received wisdom, but as a shareholder, I emphatically do not want this. I want long-term value, as I am a long-term investor. I hate that I have to watch out for shady things like this and adjust my holdings accordingly.
      - alasdair_ 7y ago
        >there is no incentive for it either, shareholders want returns NOW, and so they want CEOs to act in their interest NOW. Many of the biggest shareholders are major pension funds with 30 to 50 year time horizons. They absolutely do NOT want "returns NOW" with the implicit assumption that future quarters don't matter.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        They absolutely do NOT want "returns NOW" with the implicit assumption that future quarters don't matter. That is true but it is also true that they can’t risk waiting 30 years only to find their investment is worthless. Hence the insistence on quarterly reporting.
- burkaman 7y ago
  I always thought this was a weird definition of "rational". If you're already rich, which I assume most hired CEOs are, why is prioritizing money over people a more rational decision? Is that money going to change their life in any meaningful way? Is it any less correct to say it's in their best interest to stop working as soon as they have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of their life, to minimize stress and maximize lifetime? I understand that it's rational behavior for someone driven exclusively by money, but that's an important qualification. Most people are not money robots, so they aren't given these jobs.
  - bsder 7y ago
    > If you're already rich, which I assume most hired CEOs are, why is prioritizing money over people a more rational decision? Generally, a non-founder CEO is a ferociously competitive person--probably to the point of being pathological. They often "play poker" in situations where there is very little upside to doing so. Great salespeople are often the same way, they simply can't turn it off. You are asking a leopard to change his spots after he has started eating the antelope.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - soledades 7y ago
      > pathological That was precisely the parent comment's point.
    - burkaman 7y ago
      I understand, I just don't think we should describe that behavior as "rational". In casual conversation, the word means "sensible, logic-driven decisions that any person with good judgement would take". Here we're describing behavior driven by a particular niche, unnatural rationale, and pretty much any behavior can be explained that way.
  - orclev 7y ago
    It's the corporate structure. The CEO either grows the year over year profits or he gets punished/fired by the board. Boards pick CEOs based on a history of delivering growth at any cost (this is one of the irrational decisions, they should prioritize long term growth over short term, but they rarely do). This in turn provides a strong incentive to CEOs to make bad long term decisions if it means short term gains, because they either won't be around to see the eventual collapse (having moved on to another CEO position) or else they take the long term plan and get fired by the board for not providing enough growth (or worse, reduction).
- ajnin 7y ago
  I really dislike this kind of reasoning. Saying this is "highly rational" is saying the only value is money. Everything else can be set aside if it leads to more money. Even if people get hurt or worse using shoddy equipment. There is no place for empathy, at a sociopathic level. I'd think that a few millennia of civilization would give more value to notions of altruism, honesty, not constantly trying to scam your fellow man.
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
    This is a sort of "Ayn Rand'ian" rationality in which the only thing that matters is what you're getting out of the deal independently of how devoid of empathy your worldview is.
  - ip26 7y ago
    Yes, but we already know these positions tend to select for mildly sociopathic behavior in the first place...
  - _jal 7y ago
    It is "highly rational" in the sense that success at their chosen career means hitting financial targets defined over short time periods. The behavior won't change until the incentives do.
rhizome 7y ago
>It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing What sense of "hold up" are you using here, "support" or "delay?"
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  "Impede" is the way the word is being used; see definition 2 of the verb here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holdup https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holdup
  - Loughla 7y ago
    Correct

dv_dt 7y ago

It’s also crazy given China trade talks right now. Seems like at least something to postpone a year or so. Or maybe they already feel they have the shutoff options covered.

closetohome 7y ago

You couldn't pay me enough to climb on a Chinese-made belay device.

jessaustin 7y ago
Coming next to backcountry: commingling. Yes I have purchased climbing equipment on Amazon but I always felt bad about it.
superhuzza 7y ago
Given how common Black Diamond equipment is, almost all climbers have been belayed with a Chinese made ATC, carabiner or quickdraw... https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-produts-in-the-us-and-china-explained/ https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-pro...

catalogia 7y ago

The way it's been explained to me is that it's proportional to how much money you're spending. If you think you're getting a great deal from the Chinese, then the Chinese think it's reasonable to rip you off. Whereas a manufacture in another country might say: "For that little money, I won't do the job.", in China the answer is more like "For that little money, I'll do the job [but I'm going to rip you off, and for how little you're paying, you should already know you're going to get ripped off.]"

DenisM 7y ago
Any details about veracity? It’s the first I hear of it, and it’s rather interesting.
- catalogia 7y ago
  Unfortunately I don't have more details; it's something I heard a few years ago from a Chinese coworker. He was explaining that quality products can be produced in China, but you have to pay for that quality just like anywhere else. And it happens that when American companies outsource to China, they're often looking for the cheapest bidder.
ddingus 7y ago
This is super interesting. The idea, "someone is always willing to make the money" is playing out in this unexpected way! Got any links for a person to learn more about this cultural difference?

mbostleman 7y ago

“QC issues” are not a variable I want to consider In climbing gear.

CydeWeys 7y ago

It seems like the liability issues here with life-critical equipment should make any lawyer put a hold on this idea, but apparently not?