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I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative estimate

by Vysero 7y ago

I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative estimate of 20k that's still too much considering I can go out and buy a used car that gets 20mpg for 5k and keep it for the next 100k miles. I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. I just wish someone would make and sell a reliable electric car in the states for around 10-15k and provide me with enough utility stations to make it practical to use.

windsurfer 7y ago
May I ask why you wouldn't be able to charge it at home? It is my understanding that most people simply charge their electric cars overnight, much like their phones.
- vkou 7y ago
  My apartment building does not have, and by my best guess, will never have car chargers in its parking garage. And I'm lucky enough to have a parking garage. At least ~70% of the people living in my area park on the street, where there are... Also no chargers.
  - hannasanarion 7y ago
    Have you considered asking them if they would install one? They aren't that expensive, only about $1000 bucks, and I think there are some federal subsidies. With a service like Chargepoint, there is no cost to the landlord at all. They have a brochure you can print out on their website. Failing that you can park near a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours.
    - close04 7y ago
      > a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours A regular 120V outlet is 15A at best (usually 12A). That's barely enough to charge a PHEV in 8h, let alone a BEV. Practical example [0]: > connected to a 240V outlet, the onboard 7.7kW charger should take the battery from 0-100% SoC in 2 hours 25 min. (A 120V charge will take a bit longer at just over 16.5 hours.) [0] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-new-q5-and-a8-tfsi-e-plug-in-hybrids/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-...
      - pound 7y ago
        I'd clarify that regular outlet is _usually_ 15A. 12A is what car will be drawing as this is continuous load (should be 80%, code requirements). Quite often breaker behind that 120V outlet is 20A one.
    - madengr 7y ago
      The federal tax credit ended in tax year 2018. I installed two Open EVSE in my garage, and ran a 100 amp sub-panel. I did all the work myself and was able to claim about $300 of the tax credit; can't claim own labor so it was all materials. Even then, the credit was capped at $1k. The EVSE run between $500 - $1000. Add in the cost of a residential electrician, and I'm estimating $3k total. If it's commercial, then double that. If you have to trench and do concrete work, double it again. Get into a ROW with other utilities, even worse. It gets expensive really fast. The level 1 charger for my 24 kW*H Leaf says 24 hours for a full charge. Forget about it for a Tesla.
- Vysero 7y ago
  Perhaps I am in the minority but my home is an apartment complex so I park in the parking lot. There are no chargers in the parking lot. Either way (I could be wrong) I don't think you can just plug it into a 120V outlet to get a charge.
  - dmix 7y ago
    No thats the biggest problem for most buyers living in apartment buildings in urban areas. It's still quite rare to find chargers in underground parking lots. That's what prevented me from buying one as well. I didn't want to have to go wait in line at one of the few public chargers in my city.
  - close04 7y ago
    You can but with a standard 120V (12/15A) outlet you'd spend days charging an EV with a large battery. Anything that takes more than 8-10 hours is not really a feasible option. A 240V outlet can be 32A which would be a lot more reasonable in terms of charging time.
    - pound 7y ago
      it adds about 5 miles per hour for model 3. So after charging overnight it would be at least 50 miles of range added. And this is enough for many.
      - close04 7y ago
        Which is still very slow, as I said above. The fact that you can get a tenth of the battery charge after a full night is not fast by any measure. Consider that our driving habits have been formed around getting hundreds of Km/mi worth of range in minutes. And if a gas pump would only fill 6 liters at a time nobody in the world would say “well it’s still more than most people need”.
        llampx 7y ago
        The conversation completely changes as you're not going to a gas station to fill up, you're parking your car at home or plugging it in while you shop. You have fast charging on the highway which, at least for the more powerful ones, can fill you up to 80% in 40 minutes.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  1 The US grid is "in need of improvement" see California 2 Not everyone lives in a house with of street parking
  - smileysteve 7y ago
    As this is in the context of Montana, 1. not every part of the U.S. grid is in dire need of improvement, most homes have access to 240v most of the time. (with the exception of the 1 state that has assigned fire damages to their utility. And, most vehicles are charged at night, outside of peak demand. (also, the Tesla wall was a technology that further decreased demand on the grid) 2. Most of Montana is going to have off street parking, be it a barn or garage (and with at least 120v) mostly by the necessity that sub zero temperatures ~2 months of the year freezing anti-freeze, batteries -- and that you can't use an ice scraper to scrape off feet of snow.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      "most" of the time - I think you don't realise how bad this is compared to say the UK or France or Germany
      - smileysteve 7y ago
        Sorry, for states other than California, this year, that should say all of the the time; And part of why every house is wired for 240 is because our dryers and hvacs all use 240.
        C1sc0cat 7y ago
        True but the equivalent of that else where is the 415 V cooker circuit. All the mains sockets in uk houses are 240v - this is whey you never see an electric kettle in US homes
        smileysteve 7y ago
        We're really conflating apples and oranges here as the voltage is only half the equation; By code, US 2 phase (120x2 == 240) is going to be wired with lower gauge wire to provide more overall electricity. Typically, the 240v is going to be capable of providing 600 total amps (though there are cases where 400amp is served); with a typical breaker at 30 or 40 amps. compared to a triple 415 providing 8 or 15amps.
dev_dull 7y ago
I paid $11k for my used 2015 leaf about 2 years ago. I charge it every other day (90 mile range) by plugging it in at work or at home into a DC charger that’s connected to my dryer outlet. For these cars they work great but you have to accept that they usually have to be charged every other day.
24gttghh 7y ago
No offense, but what hypothetical car are you buying for $5K that will last another 100K miles? You can get used Nissan Leaf's in the price-range you're wanting. In Spokane tho I guess... https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerType=all&mdId=35968&mkId=20077&page=1&perPage=20&rd=500&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=relevance&stkTypId=28881&zc=59715 https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerTy... Or used Prius's in Missoula: https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=preowned&fuelType=Hybrid,Plug-In%20Hybrid https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=p... edit: I am genuinely curious about the $5K car good for 100K miles.
- notJim 7y ago
  I bought a 2007 Rav4 for around $5k in 2017. Had 130k miles on it. Now 2 years later it's at around 210k and still no serious issues. I doubt it's gonna have much trouble going another 20k. I would imagine any Toyota or Honda would be similar, and probably lots of other cars too.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Pretty much any old POS with 100k on it will last to 200k if you change the fluids on some semblance of a schedule. Somewhere north of 200k is where most automatic transmissions wear out.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Toyta Hilux :-)
- nicpottier 7y ago
  All sorts of post 2000 cars from reliable brands. Cars last well into 200k miles these days. I drive a 2001 Outback with 198k miles on it. Purchased 5 years ago for ~$3700 and besides brake pads and oil haven't spent any money on it. This is the biggest barrier to electric IMO. I'm planning on getting a Tesla but it makes absolutely no economic sense.
notJim 7y ago
I feel similarly to you, I really want to switch to an electric car, but when I really look at it for me, the infrastructure is just not there yet. I am hoping in 2-3 years it will be much improved, since so many more electric cars are coming out.
tmp1132323 7y ago
> I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. Which country is converting to electric?
- Tempest1981 7y ago
  China? "China Beats U.S. 8-1 When It Comes to Charging Electric Cars" https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-10-15/china-electric-car-chargers-fleet-outpaces-u-s-ev-stations https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-10-15/china-ele...

by Vysero 7y ago

windsurfer 7y ago

May I ask why you wouldn't be able to charge it at home? It is my understanding that most people simply charge their electric cars overnight, much like their phones.

vkou 7y ago
My apartment building does not have, and by my best guess, will never have car chargers in its parking garage. And I'm lucky enough to have a parking garage. At least ~70% of the people living in my area park on the street, where there are... Also no chargers.
- hannasanarion 7y ago
  Have you considered asking them if they would install one? They aren't that expensive, only about $1000 bucks, and I think there are some federal subsidies. With a service like Chargepoint, there is no cost to the landlord at all. They have a brochure you can print out on their website. Failing that you can park near a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours.
  - close04 7y ago
    > a regular 120v outlet and use level 1 charging, which fills up most cars in about 8 hours A regular 120V outlet is 15A at best (usually 12A). That's barely enough to charge a PHEV in 8h, let alone a BEV. Practical example [0]: > connected to a 240V outlet, the onboard 7.7kW charger should take the battery from 0-100% SoC in 2 hours 25 min. (A 120V charge will take a bit longer at just over 16.5 hours.) [0] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-new-q5-and-a8-tfsi-e-plug-in-hybrids/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/10/on-the-road-with-audis-...
    - pound 7y ago
      I'd clarify that regular outlet is _usually_ 15A. 12A is what car will be drawing as this is continuous load (should be 80%, code requirements). Quite often breaker behind that 120V outlet is 20A one.
  - madengr 7y ago
    The federal tax credit ended in tax year 2018. I installed two Open EVSE in my garage, and ran a 100 amp sub-panel. I did all the work myself and was able to claim about $300 of the tax credit; can't claim own labor so it was all materials. Even then, the credit was capped at $1k. The EVSE run between $500 - $1000. Add in the cost of a residential electrician, and I'm estimating $3k total. If it's commercial, then double that. If you have to trench and do concrete work, double it again. Get into a ROW with other utilities, even worse. It gets expensive really fast. The level 1 charger for my 24 kW*H Leaf says 24 hours for a full charge. Forget about it for a Tesla.
Vysero 7y ago
Perhaps I am in the minority but my home is an apartment complex so I park in the parking lot. There are no chargers in the parking lot. Either way (I could be wrong) I don't think you can just plug it into a 120V outlet to get a charge.
- dmix 7y ago
  No thats the biggest problem for most buyers living in apartment buildings in urban areas. It's still quite rare to find chargers in underground parking lots. That's what prevented me from buying one as well. I didn't want to have to go wait in line at one of the few public chargers in my city.
- close04 7y ago
  You can but with a standard 120V (12/15A) outlet you'd spend days charging an EV with a large battery. Anything that takes more than 8-10 hours is not really a feasible option. A 240V outlet can be 32A which would be a lot more reasonable in terms of charging time.
  - pound 7y ago
    it adds about 5 miles per hour for model 3. So after charging overnight it would be at least 50 miles of range added. And this is enough for many.
    - close04 7y ago
      Which is still very slow, as I said above. The fact that you can get a tenth of the battery charge after a full night is not fast by any measure. Consider that our driving habits have been formed around getting hundreds of Km/mi worth of range in minutes. And if a gas pump would only fill 6 liters at a time nobody in the world would say “well it’s still more than most people need”.
      - llampx 7y ago
        The conversation completely changes as you're not going to a gas station to fill up, you're parking your car at home or plugging it in while you shop. You have fast charging on the highway which, at least for the more powerful ones, can fill you up to 80% in 40 minutes.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
1 The US grid is "in need of improvement" see California 2 Not everyone lives in a house with of street parking
- smileysteve 7y ago
  As this is in the context of Montana, 1. not every part of the U.S. grid is in dire need of improvement, most homes have access to 240v most of the time. (with the exception of the 1 state that has assigned fire damages to their utility. And, most vehicles are charged at night, outside of peak demand. (also, the Tesla wall was a technology that further decreased demand on the grid) 2. Most of Montana is going to have off street parking, be it a barn or garage (and with at least 120v) mostly by the necessity that sub zero temperatures ~2 months of the year freezing anti-freeze, batteries -- and that you can't use an ice scraper to scrape off feet of snow.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    "most" of the time - I think you don't realise how bad this is compared to say the UK or France or Germany
    - smileysteve 7y ago
      Sorry, for states other than California, this year, that should say all of the the time; And part of why every house is wired for 240 is because our dryers and hvacs all use 240.
      - C1sc0cat 7y ago
        True but the equivalent of that else where is the 415 V cooker circuit. All the mains sockets in uk houses are 240v - this is whey you never see an electric kettle in US homes
        smileysteve 7y ago
        We're really conflating apples and oranges here as the voltage is only half the equation; By code, US 2 phase (120x2 == 240) is going to be wired with lower gauge wire to provide more overall electricity. Typically, the 240v is going to be capable of providing 600 total amps (though there are cases where 400amp is served); with a typical breaker at 30 or 40 amps. compared to a triple 415 providing 8 or 15amps.

dev_dull 7y ago

I paid $11k for my used 2015 leaf about 2 years ago. I charge it every other day (90 mile range) by plugging it in at work or at home into a DC charger that’s connected to my dryer outlet. For these cars they work great but you have to accept that they usually have to be charged every other day.

24gttghh 7y ago

No offense, but what hypothetical car are you buying for $5K that will last another 100K miles? You can get used Nissan Leaf's in the price-range you're wanting. In Spokane tho I guess... https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerType=all&mdId=35968&mkId=20077&page=1&perPage=20&rd=500&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sort=relevance&stkTypId=28881&zc=59715 https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerTy... Or used Prius's in Missoula: https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=preowned&fuelType=Hybrid,Plug-In%20Hybrid https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=p... edit: I am genuinely curious about the $5K car good for 100K miles.

notJim 7y ago
I bought a 2007 Rav4 for around $5k in 2017. Had 130k miles on it. Now 2 years later it's at around 210k and still no serious issues. I doubt it's gonna have much trouble going another 20k. I would imagine any Toyota or Honda would be similar, and probably lots of other cars too.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Pretty much any old POS with 100k on it will last to 200k if you change the fluids on some semblance of a schedule. Somewhere north of 200k is where most automatic transmissions wear out.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Toyta Hilux :-)
nicpottier 7y ago
All sorts of post 2000 cars from reliable brands. Cars last well into 200k miles these days. I drive a 2001 Outback with 198k miles on it. Purchased 5 years ago for ~$3700 and besides brake pads and oil haven't spent any money on it. This is the biggest barrier to electric IMO. I'm planning on getting a Tesla but it makes absolutely no economic sense.

notJim 7y ago

I feel similarly to you, I really want to switch to an electric car, but when I really look at it for me, the infrastructure is just not there yet. I am hoping in 2-3 years it will be much improved, since so many more electric cars are coming out.

tmp1132323 7y ago

> I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. Which country is converting to electric?

Tempest1981 7y ago
China? "China Beats U.S. 8-1 When It Comes to Charging Electric Cars" https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-10-15/china-electric-car-chargers-fleet-outpaces-u-s-ev-stations https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-10-15/china-ele...