5 ms·

Is it just me or does it seem like we're now one step closer to turning people into companies with shares that can be bought and sold? It feels like a small st

Is it just me or does it seem like we're now one step closer to turning people into companies with shares that can be bought and sold? It feels like a small step from ISAs for education funding to ISAs for all kinds of funding instead of traditional loan agreements and at that point you might as well sell shares of yourself to the highest bidder so they can trade your future income on a secondary market. (Note this is reminiscent of some aspects of the novel The Unincorporated Man).

pcmaffey 7y ago
Which leads us back closer to the ugly reality of people owning other people. ISA used to stand for Indentured Servitude Agreement. (Not saying Incoming Sharing Agreements's are bad, we just have to be careful...)
- yowlingcat 7y ago
  I don't disagree with you, but I'll note that the non-dischargeable terms of medical and student loan debt in the USA essentially do that already, with the added caveat of not even incentivizing the note holder to get the borrower on their feet. Is this no better than that? I think it's moving in the right direction. It's capped, and while there's still the potential structural issue of middleman taking an unfairly sized cut, the incentive structure of "we don't make money unless our education helps you do so" seems like an order of magnitude better than the alternative.
  - throwaway_law 7y ago
    >I don't disagree with you, but I'll note that the non-dischargeable terms of medical and student loan debt in the USA essentially do that already As a preliminary matter this is false...student loans are dischargable in bankruptcy, they are just treated differently than other debt. However, there is a reason everyone thinks student loans aren't dischargable and the myth persists... >the incentive structure of "we don't make money unless our education helps you do so" seems like an order of magnitude better than the alternative. Not when the real alternative is student loan forgiveness and free tuition moving forward. The issue is framing the problem as student loans for life or a financier owning a % of your labor for life, when there are other models.
    - yowlingcat 7y ago
      Student loan forgiveness would be great, as would be free tuition, but do you mean on a federal level? I'd love to see such a policy come to fruition.
      - throwaway_law 7y ago
        I don't want to make it about politics or a politician, but you can search for their campaign platform proposal for additional details. As far as I know there is only one candidate running on this platform of student loan forgiveness, so it should come up quickly in a search.
        yowlingcat 7y ago
        It's great to have a presidential candidate that is running on this platform (and I think I know which one you're talking about), but I'm more interested in whether the broad coalition in congress exists, or whether it's being formed. There are a few members of congress I can think of, but not in remotely the size necessary to pull this off.
        throwaway_law 7y ago
        >I'm more interested in whether the broad coalition in congress exists Seeing as no "mainstream" political party candidate is running on this platform, I think the answer is no. Of course, I would probably say the same of any campaign issue any mainstream candidate is running on due current political climate of our 2 party system. Whats interesting is if this candidate won the election, perhaps the 2 parties would have no choice but to concede the issue, if for nothing else to realign themselves with their own constituents and win back their votes. Then again maybe we can extend the market saying "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" to politics "political parties can remain irrational longer than you can vote."
        yowlingcat 7y ago
  - novok 7y ago
    How is medical debt not dischargeable in bankruptcy?
    - nrb 7y ago
      It is, and I think it’s the chief cause of bankruptcy in the US.
- brighton36 7y ago
  Finally someone said it. Thank you.
- vanniv 7y ago
  Fortunately, indentured servitude was outlawed, along with slavery, by the passage of the 13th amendment. Of course, the constitution is only as powerful as we are willing to follow it -- but I'm pretty comfortable that the slope between people agreeing to pool their income voluntarily and people being forced into servitude isn't all that slippery.
gadders 7y ago
Bowie Bonds for all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_bond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_bond
thelock85 7y ago
I think this is how the social media influencer market works.
bilbo0s 7y ago
Be careful what you wish for. Shares of this nature would be regulated as securities. Which would bring a great many uncomfortable requirements to the table. Just as a for instance, I'll just point out that corporations have Boards of Directors and shareholder meetings. Both of which potentially determine and direct any future actions the corporation is allowed to take.
tathougies 7y ago
Perhaps it is. However, interestingly to note, most religions, like traditional Christianity and Islam, would actually be okay with an income sharing system (especially if the share was redeemable and payments set up to accomplish this) as opposed to an interest based system. It is unclear that an income sharing system is any morally worse than an interest bearing one, and there are reasons to think it is better.
- danenania 7y ago
  Given that interest-bearing loans eventually convert to ISAs if they aren't paid (through wage garnishment), it seems hard to argue that they aren't strictly worse for the borrower.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    ISAs are not wage garnishment though. My ISA would be tied solely to the amount you're making and a non-interest-bearing predetermined price. Wage garnishment is a form of interest sharing, sure, but the underlying liability is growing at an exponential rate, which is what would be wrong.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
This article doesn't really go into it, but the impetus from what I gather is to try to find a viable alternative to the current system that balances practical realities with various ideals or goals. Historically, college was an upper class pursuit because the upper classes could afford it. You introduce student loans and then instruments to make them more easily accessible to anyone, you end up with the current debacle. Part of the cause of the current debacle is the fact that it takes more than the right degree to establish a sufficient income to make traditional student loans make sense. You also need job hunting skills, availability of good paying jobs and a personal situation conducive to working full-time. This means no health crises, unexpected pregnancies or other family problems imposing on your time. What we've learned is that the bet involved in the current student loan process is a bet that still leaves a lot of lower class people in a situation where college is a bad bet that may just deepen their financial problems and de facto keep them trapped in poverty. I don't know if this solution is the right solution, but I do think the goals and ideas driving these experiments are healthy impetuses. We need to continue to try to find societal patterns and practices that help lower income people have the opportunity to rise. It's better for society overall. The tendency for the principle of "them that has, gets" to deepen class divides is one that needs constant push back. Otherwise, it foments bloody revolution. We already have memes like "Eat the rich" which point to deep resentment and bitterness of the "peasant" classes. You would have to be a fool to think that's not anything to be concerned about.

pcmaffey 7y ago

Which leads us back closer to the ugly reality of people owning other people. ISA used to stand for Indentured Servitude Agreement. (Not saying Incoming Sharing Agreements's are bad, we just have to be careful...)

yowlingcat 7y ago
I don't disagree with you, but I'll note that the non-dischargeable terms of medical and student loan debt in the USA essentially do that already, with the added caveat of not even incentivizing the note holder to get the borrower on their feet. Is this no better than that? I think it's moving in the right direction. It's capped, and while there's still the potential structural issue of middleman taking an unfairly sized cut, the incentive structure of "we don't make money unless our education helps you do so" seems like an order of magnitude better than the alternative.
- throwaway_law 7y ago
  >I don't disagree with you, but I'll note that the non-dischargeable terms of medical and student loan debt in the USA essentially do that already As a preliminary matter this is false...student loans are dischargable in bankruptcy, they are just treated differently than other debt. However, there is a reason everyone thinks student loans aren't dischargable and the myth persists... >the incentive structure of "we don't make money unless our education helps you do so" seems like an order of magnitude better than the alternative. Not when the real alternative is student loan forgiveness and free tuition moving forward. The issue is framing the problem as student loans for life or a financier owning a % of your labor for life, when there are other models.
  - yowlingcat 7y ago
    Student loan forgiveness would be great, as would be free tuition, but do you mean on a federal level? I'd love to see such a policy come to fruition.
    - throwaway_law 7y ago
      I don't want to make it about politics or a politician, but you can search for their campaign platform proposal for additional details. As far as I know there is only one candidate running on this platform of student loan forgiveness, so it should come up quickly in a search.
      - yowlingcat 7y ago
        It's great to have a presidential candidate that is running on this platform (and I think I know which one you're talking about), but I'm more interested in whether the broad coalition in congress exists, or whether it's being formed. There are a few members of congress I can think of, but not in remotely the size necessary to pull this off.
        throwaway_law 7y ago
        >I'm more interested in whether the broad coalition in congress exists Seeing as no "mainstream" political party candidate is running on this platform, I think the answer is no. Of course, I would probably say the same of any campaign issue any mainstream candidate is running on due current political climate of our 2 party system. Whats interesting is if this candidate won the election, perhaps the 2 parties would have no choice but to concede the issue, if for nothing else to realign themselves with their own constituents and win back their votes. Then again maybe we can extend the market saying "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent" to politics "political parties can remain irrational longer than you can vote."
        yowlingcat 7y ago
- novok 7y ago
  How is medical debt not dischargeable in bankruptcy?
  - nrb 7y ago
    It is, and I think it’s the chief cause of bankruptcy in the US.
brighton36 7y ago
Finally someone said it. Thank you.
vanniv 7y ago
Fortunately, indentured servitude was outlawed, along with slavery, by the passage of the 13th amendment. Of course, the constitution is only as powerful as we are willing to follow it -- but I'm pretty comfortable that the slope between people agreeing to pool their income voluntarily and people being forced into servitude isn't all that slippery.

gadders 7y ago

Bowie Bonds for all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_bond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_bond

thelock85 7y ago

I think this is how the social media influencer market works.

bilbo0s 7y ago

Be careful what you wish for. Shares of this nature would be regulated as securities. Which would bring a great many uncomfortable requirements to the table. Just as a for instance, I'll just point out that corporations have Boards of Directors and shareholder meetings. Both of which potentially determine and direct any future actions the corporation is allowed to take.

tathougies 7y ago

Perhaps it is. However, interestingly to note, most religions, like traditional Christianity and Islam, would actually be okay with an income sharing system (especially if the share was redeemable and payments set up to accomplish this) as opposed to an interest based system. It is unclear that an income sharing system is any morally worse than an interest bearing one, and there are reasons to think it is better.

danenania 7y ago
Given that interest-bearing loans eventually convert to ISAs if they aren't paid (through wage garnishment), it seems hard to argue that they aren't strictly worse for the borrower.
- tathougies 7y ago
  ISAs are not wage garnishment though. My ISA would be tied solely to the amount you're making and a non-interest-bearing predetermined price. Wage garnishment is a form of interest sharing, sure, but the underlying liability is growing at an exponential rate, which is what would be wrong.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

This article doesn't really go into it, but the impetus from what I gather is to try to find a viable alternative to the current system that balances practical realities with various ideals or goals. Historically, college was an upper class pursuit because the upper classes could afford it. You introduce student loans and then instruments to make them more easily accessible to anyone, you end up with the current debacle. Part of the cause of the current debacle is the fact that it takes more than the right degree to establish a sufficient income to make traditional student loans make sense. You also need job hunting skills, availability of good paying jobs and a personal situation conducive to working full-time. This means no health crises, unexpected pregnancies or other family problems imposing on your time. What we've learned is that the bet involved in the current student loan process is a bet that still leaves a lot of lower class people in a situation where college is a bad bet that may just deepen their financial problems and de facto keep them trapped in poverty. I don't know if this solution is the right solution, but I do think the goals and ideas driving these experiments are healthy impetuses. We need to continue to try to find societal patterns and practices that help lower income people have the opportunity to rise. It's better for society overall. The tendency for the principle of "them that has, gets" to deepen class divides is one that needs constant push back. Otherwise, it foments bloody revolution. We already have memes like "Eat the rich" which point to deep resentment and bitterness of the "peasant" classes. You would have to be a fool to think that's not anything to be concerned about.