10 ms·

I chatted with a rep last night and they were very responsive, said "our managers are listening to customer feedback." Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off muc

by dgzl 7y ago

I chatted with a rep last night and they were very responsive, said "our managers are listening to customer feedback." Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China... Not sure what other gear is taking that fate. Looks like it's Metolious Master Cams for me now.

ISL 7y ago
Did BD re-offshore things? At one point, they were bringing manufacturing back to the US after QC issues. Answering my own question: looks like it. They brought it back in 2015 and are going back overseas in 2019. https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-halts-us-manufacturing https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-... https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-china-red-lights-should-be-flashing https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-c...
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal fabrication such as ignoring critical tolerances or broken welds. Considering how devastating it would be for a carabiner or ice axe to fail in the field it would be hard for me to trust outsourced manufacturing.
  - Loughla 7y ago
    It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's. As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant. They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it. It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.
    - dwoozle 7y ago
      This is highly rational behavior for hired CEOs — you’re there for 5-10 years and paid based on stock price, so it’s in your best interest to sell shoddy products under the venerable brand name in the highest quantities possible, and cash out before the market discovers that your brand name is worthless (cf all of the venerable kitchen brands like All-Clad and Wusthof that now have Chinese junk lines). This is why the father to son family business model may prove more enduring.
      - reaperducer 7y ago
        All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore.
        alasdair_ 7y ago
        >All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore. If their comp package is weighted towards the five year term, they absolutely care about five years from now.
        rubyn00bie 7y ago
        I doubt any CEO's compensation is tied to anything beyond five years; and, I bet even terms at five years are sparse limited to a few giant names who have to (like Tim Cook) otherwise the stock price would collapse and that's it. I'd like to add: there is no incentive for it either, shareholders want returns NOW, and so they want CEOs to act in their interest NOW. Most shareholders aren't looking at their "ownership" stake with compassion for employees at the company, or any form of responsibility to other stakeholders, but solely for their own bottom line.
        redblacktree 7y ago
        > shareholders want returns NOW I know this is the received wisdom, but as a shareholder, I emphatically do not want this. I want long-term value, as I am a long-term investor. I hate that I have to watch out for shady things like this and adjust my holdings accordingly.
  - dv_dt 7y ago
    It’s also crazy given China trade talks right now. Seems like at least something to postpone a year or so. Or maybe they already feel they have the shutoff options covered.
  - closetohome 7y ago
    You couldn't pay me enough to climb on a Chinese-made belay device.
    - jessaustin 7y ago
      Coming next to backcountry: commingling. Yes I have purchased climbing equipment on Amazon but I always felt bad about it.
    - superhuzza 7y ago
      Given how common Black Diamond equipment is, almost all climbers have been belayed with a Chinese made ATC, carabiner or quickdraw... https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-produts-in-the-us-and-china-explained/ https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-pro...
  - catalogia 7y ago
    The way it's been explained to me is that it's proportional to how much money you're spending. If you think you're getting a great deal from the Chinese, then the Chinese think it's reasonable to rip you off. Whereas a manufacture in another country might say: "For that little money, I won't do the job.", in China the answer is more like "For that little money, I'll do the job [but I'm going to rip you off, and for how little you're paying, you should already know you're going to get ripped off.]"
    - DenisM 7y ago
      Any details about veracity? It’s the first I hear of it, and it’s rather interesting.
      - catalogia 7y ago
        Unfortunately I don't have more details; it's something I heard a few years ago from a Chinese coworker. He was explaining that quality products can be produced in China, but you have to pay for that quality just like anywhere else. And it happens that when American companies outsource to China, they're often looking for the cheapest bidder.
    - ddingus 7y ago
      This is super interesting. The idea, "someone is always willing to make the money" is playing out in this unexpected way! Got any links for a person to learn more about this cultural difference?
  - mbostleman 7y ago
    “QC issues” are not a variable I want to consider In climbing gear.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    It seems like the liability issues here with life-critical equipment should make any lawyer put a hold on this idea, but apparently not?
wsinks 7y ago
I recently bought a set of collapsable climbing poles from Black Diamond. They broke on my first really long hike. 1/3 of the way into a 72 mile route..
- notadoc 7y ago
  > Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China... That might be why
  - hombre_fatal 7y ago
    How much engineering staff do you need to make some walking sticks?
    - dfcagency 7y ago
      How much engineering staff do you need to make a search engine?
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      Black Diamond makes a lot more than just walking sticks. But even if that's all they made .. You're seriously underestimating how hard it might to to engineer and test even something as seemingly simple as a walking stick. These are lightweight, high-tech materials we're talking about (carbon fiber), which even SpaceX gave up on for their latest spacecraft. They're also collapsible/foldable. Simply put, this is harder than you think it is.
    - notadoc 7y ago
      I have no idea, I've never made an artificial walking stick. Good strong wood is quite sturdy however, but not nearly as light as a synthetic walking stick. Trying to replicate the strength of a hard wood in a very lightweight synthetic material is probably a challenging engineering task. Anyway I'd think production/manufacturing and quality assurance would be more to blame, particularly if the same products used to perform better than now.
duskwuff 7y ago
> their climbing cams will now be made in China I'm not sure if I see what's wrong with that. Like it or not, electronics manufacturing is centered around China and the APAC region. Trying to set up manufacturing outside that region, especially for a company that doesn't specialize in electronic goods, simply doesn't make sense.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Forbo 7y ago
  Slight correction, I believe they're referring to the rock climbing hardware, not cameras: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device
  - duskwuff 7y ago
    Oh! Okay, that makes more sense.
    - dgzl 7y ago
      Sorry I should have made that more clear haha
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

by dgzl 7y ago

ISL 7y ago

Did BD re-offshore things? At one point, they were bringing manufacturing back to the US after QC issues. Answering my own question: looks like it. They brought it back in 2015 and are going back overseas in 2019. https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-halts-us-manufacturing https://www.outsideonline.com/2400138/black-diamond-layoffs-... https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-china-red-lights-should-be-flashing https://companyweek.com/articles/as-black-diamond-bolts-to-c...

jschwartzi 7y ago
That's crazy. China loves to replace parts with "equivalent materials." My employer has been spending the last 3 months resolving Chinese QC issues with metal fabrication such as ignoring critical tolerances or broken welds. Considering how devastating it would be for a carabiner or ice axe to fail in the field it would be hard for me to trust outsourced manufacturing.
- Loughla 7y ago
  It's everything. Literally everything. It's what I believe is going to hold up Chinese manufacturing, regardless of how much better it is now compared to the 90's or early 2000's. As another example - Jorgenson Pony clamps were made in Chicago until they closed down (like 15 years ago). They're the gold standard for woodworking clamps. Solid as a rock. The company announced they were re-making clamps. In China. At the world's largest clamp making plant. They're garbage now. Materials are cheaper. The QC is nowhere near as good as they used to be. The price is more, even adjusted for inflation, than what they were when they were Chicago made - because people are buying the trusted brand name and getting burned for it. It's just sad. I can't imagine that I would ever trust something like climbing gear to outsourcing. No thanks.
  - dwoozle 7y ago
    This is highly rational behavior for hired CEOs — you’re there for 5-10 years and paid based on stock price, so it’s in your best interest to sell shoddy products under the venerable brand name in the highest quantities possible, and cash out before the market discovers that your brand name is worthless (cf all of the venerable kitchen brands like All-Clad and Wusthof that now have Chinese junk lines). This is why the father to son family business model may prove more enduring.
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore.
      - alasdair_ 7y ago
        >All the CEO's care about is next quarter. Five or ten years isn't even on the radar at most companies anymore. If their comp package is weighted towards the five year term, they absolutely care about five years from now.
        rubyn00bie 7y ago
        I doubt any CEO's compensation is tied to anything beyond five years; and, I bet even terms at five years are sparse limited to a few giant names who have to (like Tim Cook) otherwise the stock price would collapse and that's it. I'd like to add: there is no incentive for it either, shareholders want returns NOW, and so they want CEOs to act in their interest NOW. Most shareholders aren't looking at their "ownership" stake with compassion for employees at the company, or any form of responsibility to other stakeholders, but solely for their own bottom line.
        redblacktree 7y ago
        > shareholders want returns NOW I know this is the received wisdom, but as a shareholder, I emphatically do not want this. I want long-term value, as I am a long-term investor. I hate that I have to watch out for shady things like this and adjust my holdings accordingly.
- dv_dt 7y ago
  It’s also crazy given China trade talks right now. Seems like at least something to postpone a year or so. Or maybe they already feel they have the shutoff options covered.
- closetohome 7y ago
  You couldn't pay me enough to climb on a Chinese-made belay device.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    Coming next to backcountry: commingling. Yes I have purchased climbing equipment on Amazon but I always felt bad about it.
  - superhuzza 7y ago
    Given how common Black Diamond equipment is, almost all climbers have been belayed with a Chinese made ATC, carabiner or quickdraw... https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-produts-in-the-us-and-china-explained/ https://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-pro...
- catalogia 7y ago
  The way it's been explained to me is that it's proportional to how much money you're spending. If you think you're getting a great deal from the Chinese, then the Chinese think it's reasonable to rip you off. Whereas a manufacture in another country might say: "For that little money, I won't do the job.", in China the answer is more like "For that little money, I'll do the job [but I'm going to rip you off, and for how little you're paying, you should already know you're going to get ripped off.]"
  - DenisM 7y ago
    Any details about veracity? It’s the first I hear of it, and it’s rather interesting.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      Unfortunately I don't have more details; it's something I heard a few years ago from a Chinese coworker. He was explaining that quality products can be produced in China, but you have to pay for that quality just like anywhere else. And it happens that when American companies outsource to China, they're often looking for the cheapest bidder.
  - ddingus 7y ago
    This is super interesting. The idea, "someone is always willing to make the money" is playing out in this unexpected way! Got any links for a person to learn more about this cultural difference?
- mbostleman 7y ago
  “QC issues” are not a variable I want to consider In climbing gear.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  It seems like the liability issues here with life-critical equipment should make any lawyer put a hold on this idea, but apparently not?

wsinks 7y ago

I recently bought a set of collapsable climbing poles from Black Diamond. They broke on my first really long hike. 1/3 of the way into a 72 mile route..

notadoc 7y ago
> Don't forget, Black Diamond laid off much of the Utah engineering staff and their climbing cams will now be made in China... That might be why
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  How much engineering staff do you need to make some walking sticks?
  - dfcagency 7y ago
    How much engineering staff do you need to make a search engine?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    Black Diamond makes a lot more than just walking sticks. But even if that's all they made .. You're seriously underestimating how hard it might to to engineer and test even something as seemingly simple as a walking stick. These are lightweight, high-tech materials we're talking about (carbon fiber), which even SpaceX gave up on for their latest spacecraft. They're also collapsible/foldable. Simply put, this is harder than you think it is.
  - notadoc 7y ago
    I have no idea, I've never made an artificial walking stick. Good strong wood is quite sturdy however, but not nearly as light as a synthetic walking stick. Trying to replicate the strength of a hard wood in a very lightweight synthetic material is probably a challenging engineering task. Anyway I'd think production/manufacturing and quality assurance would be more to blame, particularly if the same products used to perform better than now.

duskwuff 7y ago

> their climbing cams will now be made in China I'm not sure if I see what's wrong with that. Like it or not, electronics manufacturing is centered around China and the APAC region. Trying to set up manufacturing outside that region, especially for a company that doesn't specialize in electronic goods, simply doesn't make sense.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Forbo 7y ago
Slight correction, I believe they're referring to the rock climbing hardware, not cameras: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Oh! Okay, that makes more sense.
  - dgzl 7y ago
    Sorry I should have made that more clear haha
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]