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I have several friends from Xinjiang, yes, they complain about some (who don't complain about their government in life? As far as I know, Utopia is still a drea

I have several friends from Xinjiang, yes, they complain about some (who don't complain about their government in life? As far as I know, Utopia is still a dream on the planet), but they feel good, even proud of their government. One of them, a girl, even volunteered in the rehearsal for the National Day parade. For Tibetan, the government freed them from the old cult (you may don't know their nobles used to wear slave skin clothes and drink from human skull bowl), build railways accelerate their economy, lower the university score for them to help them get educated, enfranchise them to vote, propose new proposal in People's Congress, etc. So how do they feel about their government? I mean those Tibetans who live in China. What's more, Tibetan, Muslims in western China, they are all Chinese people, so their issue IS the Chinese government's own business.

yorwba 7y ago
Your friends are presumably not detained for continuing to believe in the religions of their parents, so they're going to have a more positive outlook based on the state of the economy. Even if you think that it's desirable for the government to try to accelerate secularization with its "re-education camps," the implementation is guaranteed to cause a lot of suffering. The rushed timeline for construction, involuntary detention in the resulting cramped quarters, guards and teachers who were hired quickly with essentially zero training... all of this is just setting things up for physical and psychological abuse of inmates. Just look at the cases of 杨永信 and 豫章书院 torturing children to cure them of internet addiction to see how far people are willing to go if there's no oversight and their aims are supported by mainstream opinion. That the government tries so hard to suppress negative reporting doesn't exactly inspire confidence that abuse will be prosecuted. My personal prediction is that the majority of inmates are going to come out of "re-education" traumatized and with a justified hatred of the government. I'm sure they'd prefer it if the government stuck to their business of modernizing the economy, instead of trying to force loyalty in the most ham-fisted way possible.
- jhvkjhk 7y ago
  Yes, they sure are not detained, because no one gets detained for religious belief in China. The freedom of religion is written in the Constitution of China, the government shall protect their belief (you can check it yourself, it's the No. 36 in Chapter 2). I doubt the existence of the so-called "re-education camps", but I don't have enough evidence to prove it's a lie. (I think is hard to prove a thing don't exist, for example, I'm an atheist but I can't prove the absence of any god) "杨永信" and "豫章书院" is never supported by the mainstream opinion, their existence only indicate there are a bunch of people don't know how to raise their kids, and blame their children's disobedience for so-called "Internet addiction". Many Chinese people hope the government put an end to "杨永信" and "豫章书院", but I don't know why they don't. However, this issue is not akin to Xinjiang and Tibet issues because there's no religious or minority involved.
- yorwba 7y ago
  In reply to the flagged reply: 1. While the Constitution of the People's Republic of China does protect religious freedom, this is only under the condition that the religious beliefs in question do not disturb the social order, cause bodily harm or obstruct the national education system. That means in practice, people will be detained for beliefs that are considered too extremist. 2. Would you believe me that they exist if I called them "education centers" instead? Try searching for 教培中心 in http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.ht... It is described quite clearly that people can be brought to these centers even if their extremist beliefs do not otherwise amount to a crime. 3. I specifically brought up "杨永信" and "豫章书院" because they don't involve minorities. I didn't mean that they were mainstream in the sense that most people would approve of their methods, but there's definitely widespread concern about students spending too much time on the internet and too little studying. It's just that most schools take a less brutal approach to the problem and confiscate their student's phones instead of using torture. Given your statement that > Many Chinese people hope the government put an end to "杨永信" and "豫章书院", but I don't know why they don't. consider that many Uyghur people hope the government put an end to the conditions in those "education centers" and don't know why they don't. 4. Do tell me if any of this is unconvincing. I'm still working on an airtight argument that is acceptable for someone with the perspective that the CPC is trying to do good in principle.
  - jhvkjhk 7y ago
    1&2. Oh, sorry I forgot the extremist. So what would you do when you face an extremist? Ignore him so he can stab innocent people in a railway station? Or you show him why he shouldn't do that, maybe even teach him some skills so he can make a living and become a part of society? The latter is exactly what "education centers" do according to the link. And it is described quite clearly that the center is not a prison or Auschwitz (go back home regularly). So I answer your question directly: I believe "education centers" exist, but it's not a synonym referring to the fabricated "re-education centers". 3. Your refute is valid only if the presumption is real, I applause sincerely for you, but how can you stand for many Uyghur? I live with Chinese every day so I can present more or less their thought, did you get in touch of some Uyghur or you just surmise their thought from, let me cite Trump, "Fake News"? 4. I really hope to read your airtight, immaculate, irrefutable argument!

yorwba 7y ago

Your friends are presumably not detained for continuing to believe in the religions of their parents, so they're going to have a more positive outlook based on the state of the economy. Even if you think that it's desirable for the government to try to accelerate secularization with its "re-education camps," the implementation is guaranteed to cause a lot of suffering. The rushed timeline for construction, involuntary detention in the resulting cramped quarters, guards and teachers who were hired quickly with essentially zero training... all of this is just setting things up for physical and psychological abuse of inmates. Just look at the cases of 杨永信 and 豫章书院 torturing children to cure them of internet addiction to see how far people are willing to go if there's no oversight and their aims are supported by mainstream opinion. That the government tries so hard to suppress negative reporting doesn't exactly inspire confidence that abuse will be prosecuted. My personal prediction is that the majority of inmates are going to come out of "re-education" traumatized and with a justified hatred of the government. I'm sure they'd prefer it if the government stuck to their business of modernizing the economy, instead of trying to force loyalty in the most ham-fisted way possible.

jhvkjhk 7y ago
Yes, they sure are not detained, because no one gets detained for religious belief in China. The freedom of religion is written in the Constitution of China, the government shall protect their belief (you can check it yourself, it's the No. 36 in Chapter 2). I doubt the existence of the so-called "re-education camps", but I don't have enough evidence to prove it's a lie. (I think is hard to prove a thing don't exist, for example, I'm an atheist but I can't prove the absence of any god) "杨永信" and "豫章书院" is never supported by the mainstream opinion, their existence only indicate there are a bunch of people don't know how to raise their kids, and blame their children's disobedience for so-called "Internet addiction". Many Chinese people hope the government put an end to "杨永信" and "豫章书院", but I don't know why they don't. However, this issue is not akin to Xinjiang and Tibet issues because there's no religious or minority involved.
yorwba 7y ago
In reply to the flagged reply: 1. While the Constitution of the People's Republic of China does protect religious freedom, this is only under the condition that the religious beliefs in question do not disturb the social order, cause bodily harm or obstruct the national education system. That means in practice, people will be detained for beliefs that are considered too extremist. 2. Would you believe me that they exist if I called them "education centers" instead? Try searching for 教培中心 in http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-03/18/c_1124247196.ht... It is described quite clearly that people can be brought to these centers even if their extremist beliefs do not otherwise amount to a crime. 3. I specifically brought up "杨永信" and "豫章书院" because they don't involve minorities. I didn't mean that they were mainstream in the sense that most people would approve of their methods, but there's definitely widespread concern about students spending too much time on the internet and too little studying. It's just that most schools take a less brutal approach to the problem and confiscate their student's phones instead of using torture. Given your statement that > Many Chinese people hope the government put an end to "杨永信" and "豫章书院", but I don't know why they don't. consider that many Uyghur people hope the government put an end to the conditions in those "education centers" and don't know why they don't. 4. Do tell me if any of this is unconvincing. I'm still working on an airtight argument that is acceptable for someone with the perspective that the CPC is trying to do good in principle.
- jhvkjhk 7y ago
  1&2. Oh, sorry I forgot the extremist. So what would you do when you face an extremist? Ignore him so he can stab innocent people in a railway station? Or you show him why he shouldn't do that, maybe even teach him some skills so he can make a living and become a part of society? The latter is exactly what "education centers" do according to the link. And it is described quite clearly that the center is not a prison or Auschwitz (go back home regularly). So I answer your question directly: I believe "education centers" exist, but it's not a synonym referring to the fabricated "re-education centers". 3. Your refute is valid only if the presumption is real, I applause sincerely for you, but how can you stand for many Uyghur? I live with Chinese every day so I can present more or less their thought, did you get in touch of some Uyghur or you just surmise their thought from, let me cite Trump, "Fake News"? 4. I really hope to read your airtight, immaculate, irrefutable argument!