4 ms·

I truly don't know how to significantly improve the school experience for most kids short of just kicking out (or isolating) the bottom few percent, in terms of

I truly don't know how to significantly improve the school experience for most kids short of just kicking out (or isolating) the bottom few percent, in terms of disruptiveness, violence, and GAF-ness, certainly by 6th or 7th grade, if not earlier. Which seems like a shitty solution and is legally untenable for a bunch of reasons I'm sure, but they're responsible for a large part of why school sucks so much and is so unproductive for everyone else. Any why teaching is so stressful and (at times, some places more than others) feels unrewarding.

leetcrew 7y ago
I think there's an argument to be made that the disruptive kids need special attention just as much as the gifted students, albeit of a different kind. they don't seem to benefit from the standard "just pretend they're learning" approach.
- pstuart 7y ago
  Sure, get them the attention they need. Just don't make the rest of the class pay for it.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    this is what I'm saying. keeping them in the same class with the rest of the kids is just pretending to teach them. all it does is protect administrators from accusations of tracking.
- chongli 7y ago
  They do need special attention. The problem is that the average teacher is simply not equipped to deal with their level of need. Kids at the very bottom of the performance distribution tend to have major issues at home, mental health issues, and may even have personality disorders in the dark triad. These kids need serious help from experts. That's too expensive though, so they aren't going to get it and everyone who has to interact with them ends up paying the price.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    a quick Google search shows that public school teachers get paid as much as or more than a typical LCSW, so I'm not sure why getting these kids help would inherently be super expensive unless you want to also increase the adult-to-student ratio for them by a lot. even if it's a bit more expensive per student, my guess is it would be very cost effective at improving outcomes for the rest of the kids.
    - brewdad 7y ago
      You would absolutely have to have more adults involved per student. My kid's HS has an average class size of 30 and some classes approaching 50 students. I can't imagine what a class of 35+ disruptors and only 1 instructor would look like but it wouldn't be pretty. Ideally, something closer to the 5-1 ratio my district mandates for special ed classes would be more effective. These kids are going to need a lot of individualized attention if you want to help turn them around.

leetcrew 7y ago

I think there's an argument to be made that the disruptive kids need special attention just as much as the gifted students, albeit of a different kind. they don't seem to benefit from the standard "just pretend they're learning" approach.

pstuart 7y ago
Sure, get them the attention they need. Just don't make the rest of the class pay for it.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  this is what I'm saying. keeping them in the same class with the rest of the kids is just pretending to teach them. all it does is protect administrators from accusations of tracking.
chongli 7y ago
They do need special attention. The problem is that the average teacher is simply not equipped to deal with their level of need. Kids at the very bottom of the performance distribution tend to have major issues at home, mental health issues, and may even have personality disorders in the dark triad. These kids need serious help from experts. That's too expensive though, so they aren't going to get it and everyone who has to interact with them ends up paying the price.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  a quick Google search shows that public school teachers get paid as much as or more than a typical LCSW, so I'm not sure why getting these kids help would inherently be super expensive unless you want to also increase the adult-to-student ratio for them by a lot. even if it's a bit more expensive per student, my guess is it would be very cost effective at improving outcomes for the rest of the kids.
  - brewdad 7y ago
    You would absolutely have to have more adults involved per student. My kid's HS has an average class size of 30 and some classes approaching 50 students. I can't imagine what a class of 35+ disruptors and only 1 instructor would look like but it wouldn't be pretty. Ideally, something closer to the 5-1 ratio my district mandates for special ed classes would be more effective. These kids are going to need a lot of individualized attention if you want to help turn them around.