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"Ordinary" being the typical sort of public school most children in your city/county/etc would go to. A school that pre-selects students based on race, wealth,

"Ordinary" being the typical sort of public school most children in your city/county/etc would go to. A school that pre-selects students based on race, wealth, test scores, etc would not count as ordinary for obvious reasons. If what I wrote was drivel, it should be very easy to refute. Just labeling it as drivel seems like a cop-out--driven more by ideology than first-hand experience.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
By your definition, yes, I went to an ordinary school. My personal experience is against your position, for what it's worth. >>> Their paymasters want high-value cogs. > If what I wrote was drivel, it should be very easy to refute. You made the claim. You have the burden of proof. Show that either the educational bureaucrats have a "paymaster" that is different from the state bureaucracy, or that the higher-ups in the state bureaucracy want "high-value cogs".
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  "educational bureaucrats" includes "state bureaucracy". They're just pocket-lining middlemen. They have no agency. The final "paymasters" would be corporations, small businesses, and their PR agents in the non-profit sector. Examples: - textbooks--topics that haven't changed in centuries--better-covered by texts from generations ago. school system still buys sorry books at $100+ a pop because salesgirl wined-and-dined the right batch of bureaucrats. pearson, mc-graw, et al spend a few thousand, then rake in millions. - job training--local corp wants more welders/java programmers/truckers, drops some cash on school board members (directly or indirectly), then bibbity-bobbity-boo there's a brand new training center attached to a high school for some thing that I would barely even consider to be education. again, leverage to hell-and-back. tens of thousands in bribes, millions in taxpayer $$$ for free worker training & wage reduction. - educational software--oh my God. have you even seen some of the shit they waste the kids' time with these days. how does it come about? same story as the rest. - religion--the motive behind most western art and history, be it protagonist or antagonist. can't talk about it though--massive black hole in any sort of humanities education. - owned teachers--the front-line infantry, who should be able to offer constructive insights into the process are utterly powerless. too poorly paid to accumulate f-you money, and so terrified of getting kicked out before their pensions vest, they must keep their opinions to themselves and quietly tow the line. - poor accreditation--by the numbers, education programs at colleges have notoriously low standards. verified by personal experience. we had math teachers who couldn't multiply, and english teachers who couldn't diagram a sentence. thank God for the teacher's edition! I could go on, and on, and on...
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    You show several examples of bureaucrats making decisions that other people make money off of. But you said "paymasters". Got any evidence of "pay"? Or just evidence of bad decisions and suspicion of pay? I grant you that, if you are correct, it would explain a lot. It would explain why we spend so much on education for so little result. But, as I asked, do you have evidence of pay? And "paymaster", to me, doesn't imply just a little cash under the table. It means that they're getting paid something in the neighborhood of their salary, or more. (Maybe that's just how the word strikes me.)
    - jstewartmobile 7y ago
      Oh my sweet summer child! This is how the world works. Look at the governors, the congress, the president! The disconnect is that you are approaching this as someone who is A) spending his own money, and B) not a dummy. Soaking the taxpayer for "just" a few hundred thousand for a nice steak dinner happens all the time. They're state employees. It's not their money, and it's not like they're going to get fired for it. edit: EVIDENCE. used to be married to a professor on textbook committee. textbook selection time is always a month of upscale dining. for higher-rent example, look at the epstein/ito/lessig saga at MIT. befriend sales guys at any big company, and they can give you examples from morning to midnight. open your eyes. it is hidden in plain sight.
      - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
        "This is just how the world works" is not evidence. Since you seem unwilling to present any, I'm going to assume that you have none.
        jstewartmobile 7y ago
        and since the rate-limit is probably off by now, i will continue: - we have a website to track how hard the doctors are being bribed to prescribe certain medications. they were probably bribed even harder before the disclosure requirement. - we have F-35 project--over a trillion in development according to some sources. many reports that it loses to its 40-yr-old predecessor. one only needs to look at the revolving-door between military brass and defense contractors to see how this happens. money doesn't even need to change hands while they're employed by the government--just dangle a juicy board position for when they "retire" - in a similar vein, remember the number bob rubin pulled in the citibank/travelers merger - DC is poster child for dropping a few hundred K through lobbyists and campaign contributions, then getting millions in return for it. of course, none of this could ever happen in public education.
perl4ever 7y ago
Let's say there is a city (somewhere in the northern half of the US) that has seen better days, due to the rise and fall of local industry in the 20th century, and there is a town/suburb that has much higher property values and better schools. The students in the suburban school(s) are much more likely to go to college than in the city schools. The suburb is nearly all white, with lots of parents with well-paying STEM jobs, while the city is not. De facto segregation. Which public school is "ordinary"?
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  This is a media falsehood. Money != Quality Education. Lived in one city. Higher wages, higher level of overall education, multiple colleges, very high per-pupil expenditure--terrible performance. Lived in a rural town. Low wages, uneducated, poor, lower per-pupil expenditure--outstanding school performance. I'll ponder some other hypothesis, but money ain't it. edit: will add--before someone derps me on sample size--that a careful review of the stats will establish this as the rule rather than the exception.
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  will also add that i think you asked a perfectly fair question, and have no idea why you've been downvoted

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

By your definition, yes, I went to an ordinary school. My personal experience is against your position, for what it's worth. >>> Their paymasters want high-value cogs. > If what I wrote was drivel, it should be very easy to refute. You made the claim. You have the burden of proof. Show that either the educational bureaucrats have a "paymaster" that is different from the state bureaucracy, or that the higher-ups in the state bureaucracy want "high-value cogs".

jstewartmobile 7y ago
"educational bureaucrats" includes "state bureaucracy". They're just pocket-lining middlemen. They have no agency. The final "paymasters" would be corporations, small businesses, and their PR agents in the non-profit sector. Examples: - textbooks--topics that haven't changed in centuries--better-covered by texts from generations ago. school system still buys sorry books at $100+ a pop because salesgirl wined-and-dined the right batch of bureaucrats. pearson, mc-graw, et al spend a few thousand, then rake in millions. - job training--local corp wants more welders/java programmers/truckers, drops some cash on school board members (directly or indirectly), then bibbity-bobbity-boo there's a brand new training center attached to a high school for some thing that I would barely even consider to be education. again, leverage to hell-and-back. tens of thousands in bribes, millions in taxpayer $$$ for free worker training & wage reduction. - educational software--oh my God. have you even seen some of the shit they waste the kids' time with these days. how does it come about? same story as the rest. - religion--the motive behind most western art and history, be it protagonist or antagonist. can't talk about it though--massive black hole in any sort of humanities education. - owned teachers--the front-line infantry, who should be able to offer constructive insights into the process are utterly powerless. too poorly paid to accumulate f-you money, and so terrified of getting kicked out before their pensions vest, they must keep their opinions to themselves and quietly tow the line. - poor accreditation--by the numbers, education programs at colleges have notoriously low standards. verified by personal experience. we had math teachers who couldn't multiply, and english teachers who couldn't diagram a sentence. thank God for the teacher's edition! I could go on, and on, and on...
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  You show several examples of bureaucrats making decisions that other people make money off of. But you said "paymasters". Got any evidence of "pay"? Or just evidence of bad decisions and suspicion of pay? I grant you that, if you are correct, it would explain a lot. It would explain why we spend so much on education for so little result. But, as I asked, do you have evidence of pay? And "paymaster", to me, doesn't imply just a little cash under the table. It means that they're getting paid something in the neighborhood of their salary, or more. (Maybe that's just how the word strikes me.)
  - jstewartmobile 7y ago
    Oh my sweet summer child! This is how the world works. Look at the governors, the congress, the president! The disconnect is that you are approaching this as someone who is A) spending his own money, and B) not a dummy. Soaking the taxpayer for "just" a few hundred thousand for a nice steak dinner happens all the time. They're state employees. It's not their money, and it's not like they're going to get fired for it. edit: EVIDENCE. used to be married to a professor on textbook committee. textbook selection time is always a month of upscale dining. for higher-rent example, look at the epstein/ito/lessig saga at MIT. befriend sales guys at any big company, and they can give you examples from morning to midnight. open your eyes. it is hidden in plain sight.
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      "This is just how the world works" is not evidence. Since you seem unwilling to present any, I'm going to assume that you have none.
      - jstewartmobile 7y ago
        and since the rate-limit is probably off by now, i will continue: - we have a website to track how hard the doctors are being bribed to prescribe certain medications. they were probably bribed even harder before the disclosure requirement. - we have F-35 project--over a trillion in development according to some sources. many reports that it loses to its 40-yr-old predecessor. one only needs to look at the revolving-door between military brass and defense contractors to see how this happens. money doesn't even need to change hands while they're employed by the government--just dangle a juicy board position for when they "retire" - in a similar vein, remember the number bob rubin pulled in the citibank/travelers merger - DC is poster child for dropping a few hundred K through lobbyists and campaign contributions, then getting millions in return for it. of course, none of this could ever happen in public education.

perl4ever 7y ago

Let's say there is a city (somewhere in the northern half of the US) that has seen better days, due to the rise and fall of local industry in the 20th century, and there is a town/suburb that has much higher property values and better schools. The students in the suburban school(s) are much more likely to go to college than in the city schools. The suburb is nearly all white, with lots of parents with well-paying STEM jobs, while the city is not. De facto segregation. Which public school is "ordinary"?

jstewartmobile 7y ago
This is a media falsehood. Money != Quality Education. Lived in one city. Higher wages, higher level of overall education, multiple colleges, very high per-pupil expenditure--terrible performance. Lived in a rural town. Low wages, uneducated, poor, lower per-pupil expenditure--outstanding school performance. I'll ponder some other hypothesis, but money ain't it. edit: will add--before someone derps me on sample size--that a careful review of the stats will establish this as the rule rather than the exception.
jstewartmobile 7y ago
will also add that i think you asked a perfectly fair question, and have no idea why you've been downvoted