7 ms·

I agree with this 100%, but the issues are not intertwined. We need to fix how classes are taught in "low achieving schools," but that's really hard to do when

by borski 7y ago

I agree with this 100%, but the issues are not intertwined. We need to fix how classes are taught in "low achieving schools," but that's really hard to do when teachers are paid so poorly. Teaching isn't a lucrative career, and thus those that would be great teachers don't generally go into it. It's a really complex and difficult problem that I don't know I have a solution for. I do know that getting rid of magnet schools isn't it, though.

virtuous_signal 7y ago
And I agree with this 100%. I think that if we could somehow by fiat pay teachers as much as we paid doctors or lawyers we would attract the same calibre of talent. But we pay teachers as much as janitors or secretaries and somehow expect them to inspire intellectuals. One thing I'm not saying is that we should just give raises to everyone who's currently in the profession. It would have to be for jobs from here on out. I know of one school that does this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Equity_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Equity_Project
barry-cotter 7y ago
> on average, public-school teachers receive total compensation that is roughly 50 percent higher than what they would receive in private-sector employment. While salaries are at appropriate levels, fringe benefits push teacher compensation far ahead of what private-sector workers enjoy. Consequently, recruiting more effective teachers for public schools will be much more difficult than simply raising salaries. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-assessing-teacher-compensation https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as...
- nitrogen 7y ago
  As someone raised by two teachers I can say that my parents both had to work two to four different jobs at times just to struggle to keep up. Whatever that statistic is claiming, it doesn't reflect reality in at least some cases.
  - cortesoft 7y ago
    Interesting... both my parents were teachers, and we lived comfortably enough (not rich, but never felt deprived)
    - sokoloff 7y ago
      Same here, but I recall my parents doing side hustles working nights at the drive-in, on summer breaks filling gardens for cash, cutting firewood, doing renovation projects on rental properties we would buy to fix and rent, running a snow plow truck 12-16 hours during storms (teachers get snow days in MD, so snow plow is a near-perfect side hustle), etc.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    If you could share something about where and when your parents were working that would be most informative, thanks. Certainly there are outliers in every population but the study is talking about the teaching population, on average.
    - nitrogen 7y ago
      Utah, in a not-particularly-rich-but-not-middle-of-nowhere rural/suburban district, starting in the 1980s
- TylerE 7y ago
  Have you ever, like, talked to any teachers? Because that's total bullshit, which isn't surprising being from the Good Ole Boys Propaganda Office. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    I was a teacher for five years, am related to multiple teachers and many of my friends are teachers. If you have any actual comments on the statistical analysis comparing teachers with other workers and how they’re paid feel free to share.
- dluan 7y ago
  The Heritage Foundation is an extremely right-wing biased think tank that also produces http://dailysignal.com http://dailysignal.com. As a teacher, you should know that.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    So? The arguments, statistical analysis and summary data they base the report on are all either in the report I linked or derived from publicly available data. You don’t need to trust anything they said. You can check each individual claim. There’s no appeal to authority here. If you don’t believe their analysis feel free to attack it on the merits. But if the devil says 2 + 2 = 4 it’s still true. Either the analysis is correct or it isn’t. If it isn’t attack the analysis. You don’t need to trust the Heritage Foundation. If you can demolish their argument please do.
    - thebooktocome 7y ago
      The Heritage Foundation has been caught lying in their self-funded "studies" so many times that I find it difficult to give them the benefit of doubt.
      - barry-cotter 7y ago
        I’m not saying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I’m encouraging you not to, saying if you find something they’re wrong about or lying about shout it from the rooftops. Note this study was national news in the US when released and quite thoroughly discussed so if there are flaws you could either find them yourself or google for them.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        thebooktocome 7y ago
        Well, that's five minutes of my life that I'm not getting back. https://nepc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/TTR-TchrCompens-Heritage_0.pdf https://nepc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/TTR-TchrCompen... Consider me not surprised that there were serious methodological problems, including a general ignorance of the literature.

by borski 7y ago

virtuous_signal 7y ago

And I agree with this 100%. I think that if we could somehow by fiat pay teachers as much as we paid doctors or lawyers we would attract the same calibre of talent. But we pay teachers as much as janitors or secretaries and somehow expect them to inspire intellectuals. One thing I'm not saying is that we should just give raises to everyone who's currently in the profession. It would have to be for jobs from here on out. I know of one school that does this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Equity_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Equity_Project

barry-cotter 7y ago

> on average, public-school teachers receive total compensation that is roughly 50 percent higher than what they would receive in private-sector employment. While salaries are at appropriate levels, fringe benefits push teacher compensation far ahead of what private-sector workers enjoy. Consequently, recruiting more effective teachers for public schools will be much more difficult than simply raising salaries. https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-assessing-teacher-compensation https://www.heritage.org/education/report/critical-issues-as...

nitrogen 7y ago
As someone raised by two teachers I can say that my parents both had to work two to four different jobs at times just to struggle to keep up. Whatever that statistic is claiming, it doesn't reflect reality in at least some cases.
- cortesoft 7y ago
  Interesting... both my parents were teachers, and we lived comfortably enough (not rich, but never felt deprived)
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    Same here, but I recall my parents doing side hustles working nights at the drive-in, on summer breaks filling gardens for cash, cutting firewood, doing renovation projects on rental properties we would buy to fix and rent, running a snow plow truck 12-16 hours during storms (teachers get snow days in MD, so snow plow is a near-perfect side hustle), etc.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  If you could share something about where and when your parents were working that would be most informative, thanks. Certainly there are outliers in every population but the study is talking about the teaching population, on average.
  - nitrogen 7y ago
    Utah, in a not-particularly-rich-but-not-middle-of-nowhere rural/suburban district, starting in the 1980s
TylerE 7y ago
Have you ever, like, talked to any teachers? Because that's total bullshit, which isn't surprising being from the Good Ole Boys Propaganda Office. https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/heritage-foundation/
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  I was a teacher for five years, am related to multiple teachers and many of my friends are teachers. If you have any actual comments on the statistical analysis comparing teachers with other workers and how they’re paid feel free to share.
dluan 7y ago
The Heritage Foundation is an extremely right-wing biased think tank that also produces http://dailysignal.com http://dailysignal.com. As a teacher, you should know that.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  So? The arguments, statistical analysis and summary data they base the report on are all either in the report I linked or derived from publicly available data. You don’t need to trust anything they said. You can check each individual claim. There’s no appeal to authority here. If you don’t believe their analysis feel free to attack it on the merits. But if the devil says 2 + 2 = 4 it’s still true. Either the analysis is correct or it isn’t. If it isn’t attack the analysis. You don’t need to trust the Heritage Foundation. If you can demolish their argument please do.
  - thebooktocome 7y ago
    The Heritage Foundation has been caught lying in their self-funded "studies" so many times that I find it difficult to give them the benefit of doubt.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      I’m not saying to give them the benefit of the doubt. I’m encouraging you not to, saying if you find something they’re wrong about or lying about shout it from the rooftops. Note this study was national news in the US when released and quite thoroughly discussed so if there are flaws you could either find them yourself or google for them.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - thebooktocome 7y ago
        Well, that's five minutes of my life that I'm not getting back. https://nepc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/TTR-TchrCompens-Heritage_0.pdf https://nepc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/TTR-TchrCompen... Consider me not surprised that there were serious methodological problems, including a general ignorance of the literature.