7 ms·

Trip planning on Android phone turned off for now

120 points by xenocyon 7y ago

donut 7y ago
> ... thanks to Brian Ferris, who created the popular OneBusAway app before being hired by Google in 2011. https://www.geekwire.com/2015/onebusaway-creator-brings-seattles-real-time-transit-data-to-google-maps https://www.geekwire.com/2015/onebusaway-creator-brings-seat...
- throwaway3563 7y ago
  That OneBusAway existed first and provided its technology to Google makes this all the more obnoxiously arrogant, but that’s to be expected from Google these days. OneBusAway should cut off Google’s data feed in return; it would only be fair to.
  - Arainach 7y ago
    OneBusAway doesn't provide data to Google and presumably never did (I don't know and the article doesn't say); the data is provided by the bus service. Both OneBusAway and Google consume it.
    - angry_octet 7y ago
      Obviously the parent meant that the transit providers should do this, since they also use OBA. More generally, in the same way IXs have peering arrangements for traffic, there could be peering arrangements between data owners (e.g. bus location providers) and location API providers like Google.
pcdoodle 7y ago
This is wrong on so many levels. This is anti competitive behavior. Google built their business by scraping data from other websites.
- jrockway 7y ago
  They're asking for this API access for free whereas most customers have to pay. I am not sure Google would cut off API access if they were willing to pay. My experience with the Places API is that it is terrible. We used to use it for our Internet signup form, and there was no way to restrict the address autocompletion to addresses. So people would hedge a little and only type the street, which Google considers a "place", but obviously we don't know if we have availability on a long street or not (it was a per-building service), so we returned "unavailable" when really the answer was "there is no way we can tell you whether or not there's service there". We looked at some OSM-based solutions and those were just as bad. So I have the feeling that there is some opportunity for a competitor here, perhaps that will be their next project.
epoll 7y ago
They could show ads to pay for the API usage. I'd be ok with that. After all, it's not free for Google to host its service. Somebody has to pay, and Google really doesn't have an obligation to make it free.
- angry_octet 7y ago
  The bus companies could provide a free tier of data to Google, like one bus line, and after that Google Maps users would have to watch bus company ads for 30 seconds if they wanted to know where the bus was. After all, it costs money to track all those busses.
  - londons_explore 7y ago
    A lot of cities don't have any transit timetables at all on Google Maps, let alone realtime bus tracking, simply because the bus company considers it's timetables to be copyright, and wants licensing money to use them commercially, which Google is unwilling to pay. Those cities usually have local route planning apps, of various levels of craptastic-ness. When travelling round the world, trying to figure out which app is good for local public transit is always on my checklist next to 'buy local data sim' and 'figure out which currency they use here and what the exchange rate is'.
    - angry_octet 7y ago
      That is Google using their network effect to reap the cash, they know everyone has Maps installed. If the metro transport companies weren't so dumb and greedy they would pool their dev resources more, but I think they get suckered by signing contracts for outsourced app dev where they don't get IP rights, because that company is planning to sell the same code to 10 different customers. It usually gets tied up with the payments system (like Oyster/Octopus etc) and the morass of legacy embedded equipment. If metro companies could act collectively they could make transit data available with an API key, which would at least allow better apps.
jackyinger 7y ago
Can someone change the title to put some context in? As it is, it does not summarize the key issue here. Maybe something like: One Bus Away trip planning sunk by Google API Monetization
sundayedition 7y ago
2.3M trips / 7300 users / 30 days is more than 10 trips per day. When I took the bus in DC, each trip was 45-75 minutes long (12 mile route, during peak traffic) not counting wait times. Zero transfers. Who has time for 10 bus trips, plus wait times, per day?
- mritun 7y ago
  “Planned” vs “taken”. I usually plan trips through several different routes when I don’t know the route, and maybe take one trip. I don’t need an app to plan routes for my daily commute.
- jrockway 7y ago
  It says that's how many trips were "planned", not taken. It's an interesting UI study to see how many trips were planned vs. taken, though. When I use Google Maps to plan a trip, the leave/arrive times are usually wrong, so I have to adjust those. It's kind of a pain to type in a time, so I hit the "+ 30 minutes" button a bunch of times until I get to the desired time. So if this is a trip for 6 hours later today, that's going to be 12 trips planned vs. 1 taken.
tuukkah 7y ago
Don't depend on Google's APIs. Please use OpenStreetMap data with (and contribute to) OpenMapTiles, OpenTripPlanner, Pelias geocoding etc.
- zeta0134 7y ago
  So I've tried to use OpenStreetMap but it's hard to ditch the business directory that Google Maps has built in. Are you aware of any open source / crowd sourced directory of physical businesses? It seems like such a thing could exist but I don't know what all is out there.
  - jakecopp 7y ago
    > Are you aware of any open source / crowd sourced directory of physical businesses Yep that's OpenStreetMap! You could use Pelias for geocoding, OSM for the data. Why not offer for users to add the business to OSM if it doesn't exist? I think Foursquare also has a directory, I'm not sure what their costs are though (and closed of course).
    - LunaSea 7y ago
      Having investigated the use of OpenStreetMap data in the past year, I have to say that it's still disappointing and not complete enough to be used as a serious solution. If I look at university nodes that have a website in France I find 241 unique values which represents less than 10% of the total amount.
      - tuukkah 7y ago
        Typically, there is no perfect data source and their applicability depends on your use cases. OpenStreetMap is first about streets, then (geometries of) buildings, POIs etc. An attribute like website information has not been high on the use cases that the community has but I think this is getting better with more use and especially the integration with Wikidata. In Wikidata, I can currently get 563 results for institutes of higher education in France with website information: https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20DISTINCT%20%3Fschool%20%3FschoolLabel%20%3Fwebsite%20WHERE%20%7B%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%20%20%3Fschool%20wdt%3AP31%2Fwdt%3AP279%2a%20wd%3AQ38723.%0A%20%20%3Fschool%20wdt%3AP17%20wd%3AQ142.%0A%20%20%3Fschool%20wdt%3AP856%20%3Fwebsite.%0A%7D%20%0ALIMIT%201000 https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20DISTINCT%20%3Fschool%20... EDIT: Applied the fix by yorwba to get more results.
scarface74 7y ago
What’s ironic is that Google enforced a rule that Apple hasn’t had for over eight years but people still falsely accuse Apple of having....
- askvictor 7y ago
  Not quite; Google's rule is you can't _use their APIs_ to create a product substantially similar to Google's products.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Almost anything you write for Android will be using at least some of their APIs. When the policy was in affect back in 2010 for Apple, I remember a good podcast player was pulled. It used Apple’s open API to their podcast directory. FWIW, anyone on any platform now can use Apple’s podcast directory to build their own podcast app without paying Apple a dime.
Mathnerd314 7y ago
I'm not sure what API they are using. The cheapest Places SDK API call is a plain autocomplete and it's still $2.27 per thousand requests. https://cloud.google.com/maps-platform/pricing/sheet/ https://cloud.google.com/maps-platform/pricing/sheet/. They say it would cost $1000/mo, but then there are 2.3 million requests in the past 30 days, which would be $5221/mo using the $2.27 price. I guess there could be a volume discount but they don't mention it. This is the code, not particularly helpful: https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/7b63b3650eefc48b323d17e621f26e04406c41cb/onebusaway-android/src/google/java/org/onebusaway/android/map/googlemapsv2/ProprietaryMapHelpV2.java https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/7b63b3...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- squeaky-clean 7y ago
  Google offers Volume pricing for the Geocoder service above 500,000 monthly requests. https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/usage-and-billing https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/u... The geocoding API is also the most expensive at $5/1000req normally. I think this is the Geocoding code? https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/8eeda8586a394d293b3ae8bb99ef5c6df7a93176/onebusaway-android/src/main/java/org/onebusaway/android/report/connection/GeocoderTask.java#L55 https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/8eeda8...
  - Mathnerd314 7y ago
    The Geocoding API is free on Android: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8218764/android-geocoder-quota-limits https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8218764/android-geocoder... Presumably Google would like to change this at some point but it'll be difficult since it's built into Android proper rather than the Play SDK or similar.
    - squeaky-clean 7y ago
      Those results are from 2011-2013, it is no longer free as of July 29, 2019. [0] > To translate points-of-interest names (e.g. “Airport”) and addresses (e.g., “1234 Anywhere Dr.”), the team selected the Google Places SDK, which was free to use for Android apps. > In 2019, Google decided to start charging for use of the Places SDK on Android – a cost of around $35 per day (around $1000 per month). We pleaded our case to Google and were directed to apply to the Google for Nonprofits program [0] https://developers.google.com/places/android-sdk/usage-and-billing https://developers.google.com/places/android-sdk/usage-and-b...
izacus 7y ago
So isn't this what we want? For Google to charge for services instead of funding them with our data? Or is the surprise here about just how much it costs to run these services?
- bnt 7y ago
  But with Google it’s both ways: they want the money and still will collect / sell your data.
- swebs 7y ago
  >instead of funding them with our data? What gives you the impression that they're going to stop profiting off our data? If anything, this is them double-dipping. We get the worst of both worlds.

120 points by xenocyon 7y ago

> ... thanks to Brian Ferris, who created the popular OneBusAway app before being hired by Google in 2011. https://www.geekwire.com/2015/onebusaway-creator-brings-seattles-real-time-transit-data-to-google-maps https://www.geekwire.com/2015/onebusaway-creator-brings-seat...

throwaway3563 7y ago
That OneBusAway existed first and provided its technology to Google makes this all the more obnoxiously arrogant, but that’s to be expected from Google these days. OneBusAway should cut off Google’s data feed in return; it would only be fair to.
- Arainach 7y ago
  OneBusAway doesn't provide data to Google and presumably never did (I don't know and the article doesn't say); the data is provided by the bus service. Both OneBusAway and Google consume it.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    Obviously the parent meant that the transit providers should do this, since they also use OBA. More generally, in the same way IXs have peering arrangements for traffic, there could be peering arrangements between data owners (e.g. bus location providers) and location API providers like Google.

pcdoodle 7y ago

This is wrong on so many levels. This is anti competitive behavior. Google built their business by scraping data from other websites.

jrockway 7y ago
They're asking for this API access for free whereas most customers have to pay. I am not sure Google would cut off API access if they were willing to pay. My experience with the Places API is that it is terrible. We used to use it for our Internet signup form, and there was no way to restrict the address autocompletion to addresses. So people would hedge a little and only type the street, which Google considers a "place", but obviously we don't know if we have availability on a long street or not (it was a per-building service), so we returned "unavailable" when really the answer was "there is no way we can tell you whether or not there's service there". We looked at some OSM-based solutions and those were just as bad. So I have the feeling that there is some opportunity for a competitor here, perhaps that will be their next project.

epoll 7y ago

They could show ads to pay for the API usage. I'd be ok with that. After all, it's not free for Google to host its service. Somebody has to pay, and Google really doesn't have an obligation to make it free.

angry_octet 7y ago
The bus companies could provide a free tier of data to Google, like one bus line, and after that Google Maps users would have to watch bus company ads for 30 seconds if they wanted to know where the bus was. After all, it costs money to track all those busses.
- londons_explore 7y ago
  A lot of cities don't have any transit timetables at all on Google Maps, let alone realtime bus tracking, simply because the bus company considers it's timetables to be copyright, and wants licensing money to use them commercially, which Google is unwilling to pay. Those cities usually have local route planning apps, of various levels of craptastic-ness. When travelling round the world, trying to figure out which app is good for local public transit is always on my checklist next to 'buy local data sim' and 'figure out which currency they use here and what the exchange rate is'.
  - angry_octet 7y ago
    That is Google using their network effect to reap the cash, they know everyone has Maps installed. If the metro transport companies weren't so dumb and greedy they would pool their dev resources more, but I think they get suckered by signing contracts for outsourced app dev where they don't get IP rights, because that company is planning to sell the same code to 10 different customers. It usually gets tied up with the payments system (like Oyster/Octopus etc) and the morass of legacy embedded equipment. If metro companies could act collectively they could make transit data available with an API key, which would at least allow better apps.

jackyinger 7y ago

Can someone change the title to put some context in? As it is, it does not summarize the key issue here. Maybe something like: One Bus Away trip planning sunk by Google API Monetization

sundayedition 7y ago

2.3M trips / 7300 users / 30 days is more than 10 trips per day. When I took the bus in DC, each trip was 45-75 minutes long (12 mile route, during peak traffic) not counting wait times. Zero transfers. Who has time for 10 bus trips, plus wait times, per day?

mritun 7y ago
“Planned” vs “taken”. I usually plan trips through several different routes when I don’t know the route, and maybe take one trip. I don’t need an app to plan routes for my daily commute.
jrockway 7y ago
It says that's how many trips were "planned", not taken. It's an interesting UI study to see how many trips were planned vs. taken, though. When I use Google Maps to plan a trip, the leave/arrive times are usually wrong, so I have to adjust those. It's kind of a pain to type in a time, so I hit the "+ 30 minutes" button a bunch of times until I get to the desired time. So if this is a trip for 6 hours later today, that's going to be 12 trips planned vs. 1 taken.

tuukkah 7y ago

Don't depend on Google's APIs. Please use OpenStreetMap data with (and contribute to) OpenMapTiles, OpenTripPlanner, Pelias geocoding etc.

zeta0134 7y ago
So I've tried to use OpenStreetMap but it's hard to ditch the business directory that Google Maps has built in. Are you aware of any open source / crowd sourced directory of physical businesses? It seems like such a thing could exist but I don't know what all is out there.
- jakecopp 7y ago
  > Are you aware of any open source / crowd sourced directory of physical businesses Yep that's OpenStreetMap! You could use Pelias for geocoding, OSM for the data. Why not offer for users to add the business to OSM if it doesn't exist? I think Foursquare also has a directory, I'm not sure what their costs are though (and closed of course).
  - LunaSea 7y ago
    Having investigated the use of OpenStreetMap data in the past year, I have to say that it's still disappointing and not complete enough to be used as a serious solution. If I look at university nodes that have a website in France I find 241 unique values which represents less than 10% of the total amount.
    - tuukkah 7y ago
      Typically, there is no perfect data source and their applicability depends on your use cases. OpenStreetMap is first about streets, then (geometries of) buildings, POIs etc. An attribute like website information has not been high on the use cases that the community has but I think this is getting better with more use and especially the integration with Wikidata. In Wikidata, I can currently get 563 results for institutes of higher education in France with website information: https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20DISTINCT%20%3Fschool%20%3FschoolLabel%20%3Fwebsite%20WHERE%20%7B%0A%20%20SERVICE%20wikibase%3Alabel%20%7B%20bd%3AserviceParam%20wikibase%3Alanguage%20%22%5BAUTO_LANGUAGE%5D%2Cen%22.%20%7D%0A%20%20%3Fschool%20wdt%3AP31%2Fwdt%3AP279%2a%20wd%3AQ38723.%0A%20%20%3Fschool%20wdt%3AP17%20wd%3AQ142.%0A%20%20%3Fschool%20wdt%3AP856%20%3Fwebsite.%0A%7D%20%0ALIMIT%201000 https://query.wikidata.org/#SELECT%20DISTINCT%20%3Fschool%20... EDIT: Applied the fix by yorwba to get more results.

scarface74 7y ago

What’s ironic is that Google enforced a rule that Apple hasn’t had for over eight years but people still falsely accuse Apple of having....

askvictor 7y ago
Not quite; Google's rule is you can't _use their APIs_ to create a product substantially similar to Google's products.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Almost anything you write for Android will be using at least some of their APIs. When the policy was in affect back in 2010 for Apple, I remember a good podcast player was pulled. It used Apple’s open API to their podcast directory. FWIW, anyone on any platform now can use Apple’s podcast directory to build their own podcast app without paying Apple a dime.

Mathnerd314 7y ago

I'm not sure what API they are using. The cheapest Places SDK API call is a plain autocomplete and it's still $2.27 per thousand requests. https://cloud.google.com/maps-platform/pricing/sheet/ https://cloud.google.com/maps-platform/pricing/sheet/. They say it would cost $1000/mo, but then there are 2.3 million requests in the past 30 days, which would be $5221/mo using the $2.27 price. I guess there could be a volume discount but they don't mention it. This is the code, not particularly helpful: https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/7b63b3650eefc48b323d17e621f26e04406c41cb/onebusaway-android/src/google/java/org/onebusaway/android/map/googlemapsv2/ProprietaryMapHelpV2.java https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/7b63b3...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
squeaky-clean 7y ago
Google offers Volume pricing for the Geocoder service above 500,000 monthly requests. https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/usage-and-billing https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/u... The geocoding API is also the most expensive at $5/1000req normally. I think this is the Geocoding code? https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/8eeda8586a394d293b3ae8bb99ef5c6df7a93176/onebusaway-android/src/main/java/org/onebusaway/android/report/connection/GeocoderTask.java#L55 https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-android/blob/8eeda8...
- Mathnerd314 7y ago
  The Geocoding API is free on Android: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8218764/android-geocoder-quota-limits https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8218764/android-geocoder... Presumably Google would like to change this at some point but it'll be difficult since it's built into Android proper rather than the Play SDK or similar.
  - squeaky-clean 7y ago
    Those results are from 2011-2013, it is no longer free as of July 29, 2019. [0] > To translate points-of-interest names (e.g. “Airport”) and addresses (e.g., “1234 Anywhere Dr.”), the team selected the Google Places SDK, which was free to use for Android apps. > In 2019, Google decided to start charging for use of the Places SDK on Android – a cost of around $35 per day (around $1000 per month). We pleaded our case to Google and were directed to apply to the Google for Nonprofits program [0] https://developers.google.com/places/android-sdk/usage-and-billing https://developers.google.com/places/android-sdk/usage-and-b...

izacus 7y ago

So isn't this what we want? For Google to charge for services instead of funding them with our data? Or is the surprise here about just how much it costs to run these services?

bnt 7y ago
But with Google it’s both ways: they want the money and still will collect / sell your data.
swebs 7y ago
>instead of funding them with our data? What gives you the impression that they're going to stop profiting off our data? If anything, this is them double-dipping. We get the worst of both worlds.