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Docker became popular over FreeBSD jails the same way MySQL became popular over PostgreSQL in the 2005-ish. Not based on technical merit but because of ease of

Docker became popular over FreeBSD jails the same way MySQL became popular over PostgreSQL in the 2005-ish. Not based on technical merit but because of ease of use. In case of MySQL it was a Windows installer which made for a low barrier of entry. However MySQL didn't do ACID transactions, views, etc. at that time, all things PostgreSQL had. Similarly Docker was easy to use with images but security was a mess. The first couple of years Docker stance was actually that their container wasn't to be considered a security boundary and being able to access the host system "wasn't a bug". This in total contrast to FreeBSD jails which were always regarded as a hard boundary. Docker in FreeBSD is not as simple as you might think. FreeBSD has a Linux ABI compatibility layer in order to be able to run Linux binaties (just like WINE is a Windows ABI compatibility layer). Docker itself, the CLI application, the API, etc. is probably the easiest part.

jdsully 7y ago
Back then I chose MySQL because of php-myAdmin. That and the fact there were so many more tutorials for it were the main drivers of the decisions. Proper foreign keys and transactions were nice, but who knows if this app would go anywhere anyways (it didn't).
MuffinFlavored 7y ago
Is there a Docker equivalent for FreeBSD? Jails are only part of the equation. I can orchestrate networking/volumes all while accessing a breadth of remote images through Docker/docker-compose
- throwaway5d097 7y ago
  Maybe combining jails with something like Ansible for building images and automating configuration would be close to good enough? Though more boilerplate? I wonder
  - MuffinFlavored 7y ago
    https://github.com/swills/docker-machine-driver-bhyve https://github.com/swills/docker-machine-driver-bhyve
- jsiepkes 7y ago
  I suspect there is but I dont know about it (I use SmartOS / Triton). There is a small list of jail management tools [1]. If it doesnt exist it should be really easy to make since FreeBSD jails (usually) sit on ZFS you can easily use "ZFS send" to create a image of the ZFS dataset. All that one would need to add is some (minor) tooling. On the more "heavy side" I know that for example Project Fifo has experimental FreeBSD support [2] in case you want to host multiple FreeBSD machines with jails on them. [1] https://mwl.io/archives/2291 https://mwl.io/archives/2291 [2] https://docs.project-fifo.net/docs/freebsd https://docs.project-fifo.net/docs/freebsd
  - MuffinFlavored 7y ago
    I can guarantee none of these tools come even remotely close to the features of Dockerfiles, docker-compsoe.yml, docker-machine, etc.
natmaka 7y ago
In 201709 I tried to install FreeBSD, and could not find any reasonably practical way to verify the CD image PGP seal, nor clear pertinent documentation. On the official IRC chat some people tried to help, however this patently is not a common issue. How weird. Who wants to install an OS without being able to verify the image seal? Downloading through HTTPS may be MITM'ed, or the image replaced on the server. I reported the problem. Somebody also reported it more than a year afterwards. More than 2 years after my initial report... the ticket remains open. At best the BTS seems neglected. The FreeBSD maintainers probably agree upon the relative importance of those seals, because they publish them at https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/signatures.html https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/signatures.html , however this is neglected in documentation ( https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/bsdinstall-pre.html https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/b... ). BTW I just noticed that the signing key isn't in the strongset ( https://pgp.cs.uu.nl/mk_path.cgi?FROM=8D12403C2E6CAB086CF64DA3031458A5478FE293&TO=EF201A39 https://pgp.cs.uu.nl/mk_path.cgi?FROM=8D12403C2E6CAB086CF64D... ) Everyone involved probably thinks there are more important things to do. I don't complain, as nobody "has to" do anything upon this matter. My point is that such a way to handle this may reveal that most FreeBSD "hacktivists" just aren't willing to do such menial but necessary onboarding-facilitating job, which would IMHO be useful. It may be part of the reasons why FreeBSD has way less users than it could and should. In a way it is related to "ease of use", however this "image sealing" is more fundamental than bells, whistles and porcelain. The ticket: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222044 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222044
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  > It may be part of the reasons why FreeBSD has way less users than it could and should. I would like to gain understanding as to why the BSD maintainers + developers invest the time they do into their projects. They are awesome projects, but... who are they for? The 0.1% of people who lie to themselves saying "FreeBSD makes a great desktop/laptop?" Mac OS X makes a great laptop, that's why it is in every coffee shop around the world. Linux must beat BSD server usage 10:1, if not 100:1. I'm sure somebody below will prove me wrong but I strongly feel it's just the echo chamber effect of reddit/Hacker News. I can't think of any good reasons somebody would use *BSD over Linux and "their man pages are great + the clib is written in the same repo as the kernel + userland utilities" isn't good enough of a response for me.

jdsully 7y ago

Back then I chose MySQL because of php-myAdmin. That and the fact there were so many more tutorials for it were the main drivers of the decisions. Proper foreign keys and transactions were nice, but who knows if this app would go anywhere anyways (it didn't).

MuffinFlavored 7y ago

Is there a Docker equivalent for FreeBSD? Jails are only part of the equation. I can orchestrate networking/volumes all while accessing a breadth of remote images through Docker/docker-compose

throwaway5d097 7y ago
Maybe combining jails with something like Ansible for building images and automating configuration would be close to good enough? Though more boilerplate? I wonder
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  https://github.com/swills/docker-machine-driver-bhyve https://github.com/swills/docker-machine-driver-bhyve
jsiepkes 7y ago
I suspect there is but I dont know about it (I use SmartOS / Triton). There is a small list of jail management tools [1]. If it doesnt exist it should be really easy to make since FreeBSD jails (usually) sit on ZFS you can easily use "ZFS send" to create a image of the ZFS dataset. All that one would need to add is some (minor) tooling. On the more "heavy side" I know that for example Project Fifo has experimental FreeBSD support [2] in case you want to host multiple FreeBSD machines with jails on them. [1] https://mwl.io/archives/2291 https://mwl.io/archives/2291 [2] https://docs.project-fifo.net/docs/freebsd https://docs.project-fifo.net/docs/freebsd
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  I can guarantee none of these tools come even remotely close to the features of Dockerfiles, docker-compsoe.yml, docker-machine, etc.

natmaka 7y ago

In 201709 I tried to install FreeBSD, and could not find any reasonably practical way to verify the CD image PGP seal, nor clear pertinent documentation. On the official IRC chat some people tried to help, however this patently is not a common issue. How weird. Who wants to install an OS without being able to verify the image seal? Downloading through HTTPS may be MITM'ed, or the image replaced on the server. I reported the problem. Somebody also reported it more than a year afterwards. More than 2 years after my initial report... the ticket remains open. At best the BTS seems neglected. The FreeBSD maintainers probably agree upon the relative importance of those seals, because they publish them at https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/signatures.html https://www.freebsd.org/releases/12.1R/signatures.html , however this is neglected in documentation ( https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/bsdinstall-pre.html https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/b... ). BTW I just noticed that the signing key isn't in the strongset ( https://pgp.cs.uu.nl/mk_path.cgi?FROM=8D12403C2E6CAB086CF64DA3031458A5478FE293&TO=EF201A39 https://pgp.cs.uu.nl/mk_path.cgi?FROM=8D12403C2E6CAB086CF64D... ) Everyone involved probably thinks there are more important things to do. I don't complain, as nobody "has to" do anything upon this matter. My point is that such a way to handle this may reveal that most FreeBSD "hacktivists" just aren't willing to do such menial but necessary onboarding-facilitating job, which would IMHO be useful. It may be part of the reasons why FreeBSD has way less users than it could and should. In a way it is related to "ease of use", however this "image sealing" is more fundamental than bells, whistles and porcelain. The ticket: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222044 https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222044

MuffinFlavored 7y ago
> It may be part of the reasons why FreeBSD has way less users than it could and should. I would like to gain understanding as to why the BSD maintainers + developers invest the time they do into their projects. They are awesome projects, but... who are they for? The 0.1% of people who lie to themselves saying "FreeBSD makes a great desktop/laptop?" Mac OS X makes a great laptop, that's why it is in every coffee shop around the world. Linux must beat BSD server usage 10:1, if not 100:1. I'm sure somebody below will prove me wrong but I strongly feel it's just the echo chamber effect of reddit/Hacker News. I can't think of any good reasons somebody would use *BSD over Linux and "their man pages are great + the clib is written in the same repo as the kernel + userland utilities" isn't good enough of a response for me.