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Hi. Former Permaculturist here. The problem with Permaculture is that it takes the classic "Anecdote is not data" misconception and turns it into a design phi

Hi. Former Permaculturist here. The problem with Permaculture is that it takes the classic "Anecdote is not data" misconception and turns it into a design philosophy. This can lead to some serious problems and you end up with a design philosophy that is completely divorced from the science. For example, some of the key components of Permaculture Design - the use of nitrogen fixers and dynamic accumulators - stand on shaky ground. They're based on a limited number of studies. It's not clear whether dynamic accumulators actually add any nutrients to the soil. And for nitrogen fixers, it's not at all clear that the nitrogen they fix is available to the plants around them. It might not become available until they die back and rot. This "personal observation" basis of the design philosophy that replaces careful experimentation leads to some pretty disasterous results - like Permaculturists being extremely laissez-faire about invasive species (which, after climate change and habitat loss is one of the top contributors to the loss of biodiversity world wide). I once heard a leading Permaculturist give this really fantastic lecture about the law of unintended consequences as it relates to human engineering, and then completely write off the risk of introducing invasive plants through novel ecosystem design. I mean, it's the same damned arrogance and mentality, just using plants in mimicry of nature instead of metal to dominate it. So, personally, I've stopped encouraging people to listen to permaculturists. Permaculture is not the answer. Agroecology, however, the core kernel of Permaculture thought re-integrated with science, that holds _a lot_ of promise.

bsmitty5000 7y ago
> And for nitrogen fixers, it's not at all clear that the nitrogen they fix is available to the plants around them. It might not become available until they die back and rot. Do you mean it’s a question of if they provide more nitrogen then they use themselves? I literally just read from a children’s book in the nitrogen cycle about how bacteria that live on the roots of some plants are the only way plants can access it.
carapace 7y ago
You make a good point, and I often substitute "applied ecology" to try to emphasize the scientific grounding that Permaculture originally had (Bill Mollison was an ecologist) and still has for a lot of people, myself included. But I have to admit, I was once laissez-faire about non-native invasive species. I can thank E. O. Wilson for writing a thing that set me straight. (I gotta add that the "Permaculture Designer's Manual" is IMO one of the finest guides to design (any design, not just farming) that I've ever read. FWIW)
erikpukinskis 7y ago
So... you invented a new word that means the same thing as the old word, but isn’t associated with people doing stupid things yet? Seems like a wasteful approach to language.

bsmitty5000 7y ago

> And for nitrogen fixers, it's not at all clear that the nitrogen they fix is available to the plants around them. It might not become available until they die back and rot. Do you mean it’s a question of if they provide more nitrogen then they use themselves? I literally just read from a children’s book in the nitrogen cycle about how bacteria that live on the roots of some plants are the only way plants can access it.

carapace 7y ago

You make a good point, and I often substitute "applied ecology" to try to emphasize the scientific grounding that Permaculture originally had (Bill Mollison was an ecologist) and still has for a lot of people, myself included. But I have to admit, I was once laissez-faire about non-native invasive species. I can thank E. O. Wilson for writing a thing that set me straight. (I gotta add that the "Permaculture Designer's Manual" is IMO one of the finest guides to design (any design, not just farming) that I've ever read. FWIW)

erikpukinskis 7y ago

So... you invented a new word that means the same thing as the old word, but isn’t associated with people doing stupid things yet? Seems like a wasteful approach to language.