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Logistics and refinery technology. It can be easier to move a cargo of crude via ocean than build a pipeline. And refineries are not all identical, western ca

Logistics and refinery technology. It can be easier to move a cargo of crude via ocean than build a pipeline. And refineries are not all identical, western canada has tar sands that produce very heavy oil which require a much more complex refinery with more capital expense, the existing refineries in eastern canada have lower complexity refineries that are well suited to refining Saudi Arabian oil.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago
Actually incorrect. Bitumen from Alberta shipped through Line 9 is now refined in Ontario and Quebec and is now the majority of oil consumption in central Canada. The poster above posted an out of date article and then drew incorrect conclusions from obsolete information.
- appleiigs 7y ago
  No, it's not out-dated dude. In a different post from you, you're quoting the National Observer which I've never heard of. In Wikipedia's entry it says this: "According to an article by Vivian Krause in the Financial Post, the National Observer has received funding from The Tides Foundation of San Francisco, and Linda Solomon Wood is the sister of a former chairman of the Tides Foundation. Terence Corcoran in the National Post referred to the National Observer as a "left-wing Vancouver online magazine". For facts: As per BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2019 report, Canada consumed 108.8 millions tonnes of oil equiv. It imported 29.1 of crude. 65% from US, remainder from rest of world. 19% from Saudi.
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    Come. On. Read what you just posted. It does not disagree with the article I posted. 108.8 million tonnes of crude vs 29.1 tonnes imported means only 25% of _all of Canadian_ oil is imported, and of that 65% of it is from the U.S., not Saudi. By your own quoted numbers only 5% of Canadian crude comes from Saudi Arabia. (20% of 29.1 = 5.82 million barrels, 5.82 million barrels out of 108 million barrels is 5.3%) The CBC article was 2012. Before Line 9 reversal. You may not want it to be true, but it is. And you actually just confirmed it. And in fact most of that Saudi oil is going to eastern provinces, not central Canada: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/03-03mprtscrdl-eng.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/03-03m... Breaks down oil imports by source and province and -- this is the NEB, not a 'left wing' source -- its first sentence is: "Canada imports around one barrel of crude oil for every seven and a half barrels it produces." Note that the rest of the page only breaks down imports and doesn't show domestic sources, which as I pointed out is 75% of consumed oil _nationally_ and 90% of Ontario's.
    - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
      Also here from the NEB: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/08-01qbcscndlrgstprdcr-eng.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/08-01q... Look a the pie chart "crude oil supplies to Quebec" and look at how small the "Other" in the pie chart is. There's Kenney & Scheer's "saudi tankers."
    - appleiigs 7y ago
      Even if you accept your argument, as you pointed out, a pipeline (Line 9) helped the situation.
      - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
        Sure, an existing pipeline. It was originally built to move oil east decades ago. Then it was reversed because oil coming from the other direction was more economical. Then they reversed it back recently. My overall point is that almost every Albertan I've spoken to doesn't even know about Line 9, and politicians and media there keep repeating points about Quebec and Saudi Oil and Saudi tankers, and being denied access to markets. This doesn't accord with reality: oil from Alberta is already distributing across the country. Oil from Saudi Arabia is only a minor part of the mix in Quebec and almost none in Ontario. Also worth pointing out that as a % of GDP and as % of exports manufacturing still tops oil and gas and mining. So the claims that "Alberta is holding up the economy of the country" sound pretty unsound and shrill. In fact, when Alberta is doing really well because of high oil prices, the manufacturing centres suffer due to a high dollar.
        appleiigs 7y ago
        What does it matter if it's existing or not. The pipe helps Canada reduce spending money elsewhere. It helps the environment vs trucks, rail and tankers. A new pipe will help further, whether you think 25% imports is still high or not (it is still high, see next paragraph). You've already shown the benefits of adjusting Line 9. Oil prices are not high. Today WTI is at $54 and Alberta oil (which is also Canada's oil) is selling at $12 cheaper (21%) because of transportation issues... that's then on top of that we pay an addition cost for refined products! $12 is per barrel... and we import 592 million barrels PER DAY according to the website you linked. EDIT: you also said in a previous comment "and the world wide price of oil has been sagging for a half decade because of global macroeconomic forces"... but now you're saying oil is high? Ok, I'm really out of this discussion now, you're just making stuff up.
  - appleiigs 7y ago
    I can't reply under your reply. >imported means only 25% of _all of Canadian_ oil is imported Yes! 25% of Canadian oil is imported! Don't know why wrote "only". An oil rich country gets 1/4 of it's oil from elsewhere, including Saudi and apparently Azerbaijan. Anyway, HN reply mechanism is nudging me to move on from this discussion, so I will.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
      That 25% number does not accord with the CBC article from 2012 you posted. And it's for the entire country -- from looking at the NEB chart the majority of that is going to the Atlantic provinces.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago

Actually incorrect. Bitumen from Alberta shipped through Line 9 is now refined in Ontario and Quebec and is now the majority of oil consumption in central Canada. The poster above posted an out of date article and then drew incorrect conclusions from obsolete information.

appleiigs 7y ago
No, it's not out-dated dude. In a different post from you, you're quoting the National Observer which I've never heard of. In Wikipedia's entry it says this: "According to an article by Vivian Krause in the Financial Post, the National Observer has received funding from The Tides Foundation of San Francisco, and Linda Solomon Wood is the sister of a former chairman of the Tides Foundation. Terence Corcoran in the National Post referred to the National Observer as a "left-wing Vancouver online magazine". For facts: As per BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2019 report, Canada consumed 108.8 millions tonnes of oil equiv. It imported 29.1 of crude. 65% from US, remainder from rest of world. 19% from Saudi.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  Come. On. Read what you just posted. It does not disagree with the article I posted. 108.8 million tonnes of crude vs 29.1 tonnes imported means only 25% of _all of Canadian_ oil is imported, and of that 65% of it is from the U.S., not Saudi. By your own quoted numbers only 5% of Canadian crude comes from Saudi Arabia. (20% of 29.1 = 5.82 million barrels, 5.82 million barrels out of 108 million barrels is 5.3%) The CBC article was 2012. Before Line 9 reversal. You may not want it to be true, but it is. And you actually just confirmed it. And in fact most of that Saudi oil is going to eastern provinces, not central Canada: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/03-03mprtscrdl-eng.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/03-03m... Breaks down oil imports by source and province and -- this is the NEB, not a 'left wing' source -- its first sentence is: "Canada imports around one barrel of crude oil for every seven and a half barrels it produces." Note that the rest of the page only breaks down imports and doesn't show domestic sources, which as I pointed out is 75% of consumed oil _nationally_ and 90% of Ontario's.
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    Also here from the NEB: https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/08-01qbcscndlrgstprdcr-eng.html https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2019/08-01q... Look a the pie chart "crude oil supplies to Quebec" and look at how small the "Other" in the pie chart is. There's Kenney & Scheer's "saudi tankers."
  - appleiigs 7y ago
    Even if you accept your argument, as you pointed out, a pipeline (Line 9) helped the situation.
    - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
      Sure, an existing pipeline. It was originally built to move oil east decades ago. Then it was reversed because oil coming from the other direction was more economical. Then they reversed it back recently. My overall point is that almost every Albertan I've spoken to doesn't even know about Line 9, and politicians and media there keep repeating points about Quebec and Saudi Oil and Saudi tankers, and being denied access to markets. This doesn't accord with reality: oil from Alberta is already distributing across the country. Oil from Saudi Arabia is only a minor part of the mix in Quebec and almost none in Ontario. Also worth pointing out that as a % of GDP and as % of exports manufacturing still tops oil and gas and mining. So the claims that "Alberta is holding up the economy of the country" sound pretty unsound and shrill. In fact, when Alberta is doing really well because of high oil prices, the manufacturing centres suffer due to a high dollar.
      - appleiigs 7y ago
        What does it matter if it's existing or not. The pipe helps Canada reduce spending money elsewhere. It helps the environment vs trucks, rail and tankers. A new pipe will help further, whether you think 25% imports is still high or not (it is still high, see next paragraph). You've already shown the benefits of adjusting Line 9. Oil prices are not high. Today WTI is at $54 and Alberta oil (which is also Canada's oil) is selling at $12 cheaper (21%) because of transportation issues... that's then on top of that we pay an addition cost for refined products! $12 is per barrel... and we import 592 million barrels PER DAY according to the website you linked. EDIT: you also said in a previous comment "and the world wide price of oil has been sagging for a half decade because of global macroeconomic forces"... but now you're saying oil is high? Ok, I'm really out of this discussion now, you're just making stuff up.
- appleiigs 7y ago
  I can't reply under your reply. >imported means only 25% of _all of Canadian_ oil is imported Yes! 25% of Canadian oil is imported! Don't know why wrote "only". An oil rich country gets 1/4 of it's oil from elsewhere, including Saudi and apparently Azerbaijan. Anyway, HN reply mechanism is nudging me to move on from this discussion, so I will.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    That 25% number does not accord with the CBC article from 2012 you posted. And it's for the entire country -- from looking at the NEB chart the majority of that is going to the Atlantic provinces.