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> Empty pickups have poor weight distribution; not enough weight in back. With a giant battery pack under the pickup bed, traction is better. The problem you'r

> Empty pickups have poor weight distribution; not enough weight in back. With a giant battery pack under the pickup bed, traction is better. The problem you're mentioning being solved by a battery pack could just as easily be solved by putting any random ballast in the back of the regular truck. I think electric will have other advantages (and disadvantages), but I doubt this is a big one for most people.

donkeyd 7y ago
That ballast would then make the truck use even more fuel, which wouldn't make much sense.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  Sure, but it solves the problem of traction. The electric vehicle also reduces efficiency by adding weight to the vehicle - being electric doesn't change physics. And being able to remove weight is always preferable to not being able to remove weight.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    >The electric vehicle also reduces efficiency by adding weight to the vehicle - being electric doesn't change physics. The battery adds weight, but that's more than outweighed by the tremendous efficiency of an electric drivetrain. The EV equivalent of a gas-guzzler (e.g. a Tesla Model X P90D) still achieves the equivalent of 90mpg.
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      I am not arguing that an ICE vehicle is more efficient than an electric vehicle - I am saying that adding weight reduces efficiency for both. I was not making a general comparison between the pros and cons of electric vehicles, I was pointing out that one person's comment about better traction for electric vehicles was incredibly disingenuous because ICE vehicles can get the same benefit by simply adding weight - and they can also remove that weight when they want to unlike the electric vehicle.
      - cronix 7y ago
        Yes, but on the converse side, the weight adds extra safety, at least with the Model X. Since it's heavier and the center of gravity is lower, they tend to not roll over very easily. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/14/why-the-tesla-model-x-earned-a-perfect-rollover-safety-rating-1st-for-an-suv/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/14/why-the-tesla-model-x-e...
        OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        What I said: > I was not making a general comparison between the pros and cons of electric vehicles And you replied: > Yes, but on the converse side...[something that has nothing to do with traction] Am I unintentionally arguing that electric vehicles are bad? I get the impression people think I hate electric vehicles and are trying to convince me of their virtues, when I was simply pointing out what I thought was a logical flaw from another commenter.
      - fspeech 7y ago
        Your argument is incorrect as pointed out by dropin685 earlier. Additional weight by itself does not waste energy. It does require more power to accelerate. The extra power is turned into higher kinetic energy for the same cruising speed. However kinetic energy is not waste. It can be recovered during deacceleration. It's the lack of regeneration that causes ICE powered vehicles to waste energy, which doesn't apply to EVs with regeneration capabilities.
        OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        I am obviously failing to communicate as this was meant to be about the effects of weight and traction, and how batteries are not unique for adding weight to a vehicle (other than a lower center of gravity, but that has nothing to do with my original point). While regenerative braking is most common in electric vehicles, this also is not unique to electric vehicles. A hybrid vehicle can just as easily benefit from this, such as the Prius. > Additional weight by itself does not waste energy. It does require more power to accelerate. The extra power is turned into higher kinetic energy for the same cruising speed. However kinetic energy is not waste. It can be recovered during deacceleration. This is incorrect unless the engine/motor, drivetrain, and tires are all 100% efficient - additional weight always wastes energy. But I agree with you, electric vehicles are more energy efficient than gasoline vehicles.
    - Gibbon1 7y ago
      If the power density of batteries doubles the weight penalty likely disappears. Maybe that's not possible. But as electric vehicle production increasing there is going to be a lot of pressure to achieve that. With funding to match.
  - dropin685 7y ago
    >adding weight [...] being electric doesn't change physics Unlike Internal Combustion vehicles, electric vehicles typically feature regenerative braking. Therefore any added weight is much less of an efficiency handicap (compared with IC).
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    The battery weight is balanced by the removal of the engine, transmission and gas tank/gas weight.
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      It's not a controversial statement to say electric vehicles are heavier than gasoline vehicles. Typically an electric vehicle will weigh about 1/3 more than a competing ICE vehicle. Just look at curb weights for vehicles if you don't believe me.
      - sliken 7y ago
        1/3 sounds crazy high. Most would consider the Tesla Model 3 a luxury car. The BMW 3 series and Telsa model 3 are positioned similarly. Both are $40k-$80k, optionally AWD, sold as performance luxury sedans in a range of different performances. If you want to pick two particular models I'd say the model 3 AWD and the BMW 330i xdrive are very similar. The BMW weights 3,763 pounds, so the Model 3P weight 4,072, which is just over 8% heavier.
        OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        I just looked at some numbers and you're right, it does seem like I exaggerated. If you choose the lower weight range for the 3 series though the difference ends up being 14% heavier, and obviously you can choose difference cars to compare. But you are right, 1/3 seems too high. Maybe half that would be more accurate.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        sliken 7y ago
        I looked at the lighter weight BMW model 3 series. They were either smaller engines (not fair since the model 3 AWD is already faster), or RWD (again not fair to compare to an AWD electric). Seems like 8% is about right to me.
- potta_coffee 7y ago
  The minimum required ballast probably wouldn't make any difference at all. We're talking about a V8 with tons of torque and horsepower.
  - cartoonworld 7y ago
    >We're talking about a V8 with tons of torque and horsepower. Take a look at the market. Lots of the trucks actually sold are dumpy underpowered RWD sixes or less, and the new motors are getting smaller, better, and more fuel efficient. Doesn't sound like the market wants a heavier boat to careen down the interstate in. You can charge a whole lot more for the industrially useful V8's (which are still dumpy IMO, their job is "Don't stop turning over.") and much better diesels anyhow. At least telling uncle charlie about the OEM underslung sandbags will get quite a chuckle at Thanksgiving dinner.
- munificent 7y ago
  I put two sixty-pound buckets of gravel in the back corners of my pickup. That's a neglible difference in weight but a very noticeable difference in traction in cold wet weather.
kleton 7y ago
In non-coastal America, most of the pickup trucks you see on the road are empty.
- ben7799 7y ago
  That's true in coastal America too from what I can tell.
cartoonworld 7y ago
Everyone throws some sandbags and rock salt in the bed, next to the shovel and tinfoil blanky. Sure gonna need it when you're stuck in the ditch :) I'd take computer managed digital torque delivery over feathering my old clutch plate, if you even still get to run one of those. The dual-clutch trans will need your other foot. Mushy delivery (Sounds like an f150 to me) and out of the mud aren't really compatible.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  > Everyone throws some sandbags and rock salt in the bed, next to the shovel and tinfoil blanky. Sure gonna need it when you're stuck in the ditch :) At least you can remove that weight when you need to. I bet it's a lot easier to tow a 4,000 pound truck out of a ditch than a 6,000 pound truck.
  - cartoonworld 7y ago
    No it isn't, not at all. The tow operator is equipped for both, already. And if you're pulling with a 3k winch maybe you need to make stop at harbor freight. Anyhow, instead of faffing around with silly sandbags, a mid-engine truck is what you're dancing around. Closest thing I've heard of is the Isuzu ELF (NPR in my neck of the woods) which they've been producing since the 60's or so. The motor is kind of underneath the cab. Nobody wants what you're selling.

donkeyd 7y ago

That ballast would then make the truck use even more fuel, which wouldn't make much sense.

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
Sure, but it solves the problem of traction. The electric vehicle also reduces efficiency by adding weight to the vehicle - being electric doesn't change physics. And being able to remove weight is always preferable to not being able to remove weight.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  >The electric vehicle also reduces efficiency by adding weight to the vehicle - being electric doesn't change physics. The battery adds weight, but that's more than outweighed by the tremendous efficiency of an electric drivetrain. The EV equivalent of a gas-guzzler (e.g. a Tesla Model X P90D) still achieves the equivalent of 90mpg.
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    I am not arguing that an ICE vehicle is more efficient than an electric vehicle - I am saying that adding weight reduces efficiency for both. I was not making a general comparison between the pros and cons of electric vehicles, I was pointing out that one person's comment about better traction for electric vehicles was incredibly disingenuous because ICE vehicles can get the same benefit by simply adding weight - and they can also remove that weight when they want to unlike the electric vehicle.
    - cronix 7y ago
      Yes, but on the converse side, the weight adds extra safety, at least with the Model X. Since it's heavier and the center of gravity is lower, they tend to not roll over very easily. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/14/why-the-tesla-model-x-earned-a-perfect-rollover-safety-rating-1st-for-an-suv/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/14/why-the-tesla-model-x-e...
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        What I said: > I was not making a general comparison between the pros and cons of electric vehicles And you replied: > Yes, but on the converse side...[something that has nothing to do with traction] Am I unintentionally arguing that electric vehicles are bad? I get the impression people think I hate electric vehicles and are trying to convince me of their virtues, when I was simply pointing out what I thought was a logical flaw from another commenter.
    - fspeech 7y ago
      Your argument is incorrect as pointed out by dropin685 earlier. Additional weight by itself does not waste energy. It does require more power to accelerate. The extra power is turned into higher kinetic energy for the same cruising speed. However kinetic energy is not waste. It can be recovered during deacceleration. It's the lack of regeneration that causes ICE powered vehicles to waste energy, which doesn't apply to EVs with regeneration capabilities.
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        I am obviously failing to communicate as this was meant to be about the effects of weight and traction, and how batteries are not unique for adding weight to a vehicle (other than a lower center of gravity, but that has nothing to do with my original point). While regenerative braking is most common in electric vehicles, this also is not unique to electric vehicles. A hybrid vehicle can just as easily benefit from this, such as the Prius. > Additional weight by itself does not waste energy. It does require more power to accelerate. The extra power is turned into higher kinetic energy for the same cruising speed. However kinetic energy is not waste. It can be recovered during deacceleration. This is incorrect unless the engine/motor, drivetrain, and tires are all 100% efficient - additional weight always wastes energy. But I agree with you, electric vehicles are more energy efficient than gasoline vehicles.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    If the power density of batteries doubles the weight penalty likely disappears. Maybe that's not possible. But as electric vehicle production increasing there is going to be a lot of pressure to achieve that. With funding to match.
- dropin685 7y ago
  >adding weight [...] being electric doesn't change physics Unlike Internal Combustion vehicles, electric vehicles typically feature regenerative braking. Therefore any added weight is much less of an efficiency handicap (compared with IC).
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  The battery weight is balanced by the removal of the engine, transmission and gas tank/gas weight.
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    It's not a controversial statement to say electric vehicles are heavier than gasoline vehicles. Typically an electric vehicle will weigh about 1/3 more than a competing ICE vehicle. Just look at curb weights for vehicles if you don't believe me.
    - sliken 7y ago
      1/3 sounds crazy high. Most would consider the Tesla Model 3 a luxury car. The BMW 3 series and Telsa model 3 are positioned similarly. Both are $40k-$80k, optionally AWD, sold as performance luxury sedans in a range of different performances. If you want to pick two particular models I'd say the model 3 AWD and the BMW 330i xdrive are very similar. The BMW weights 3,763 pounds, so the Model 3P weight 4,072, which is just over 8% heavier.
      - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
        I just looked at some numbers and you're right, it does seem like I exaggerated. If you choose the lower weight range for the 3 series though the difference ends up being 14% heavier, and obviously you can choose difference cars to compare. But you are right, 1/3 seems too high. Maybe half that would be more accurate.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        sliken 7y ago
        I looked at the lighter weight BMW model 3 series. They were either smaller engines (not fair since the model 3 AWD is already faster), or RWD (again not fair to compare to an AWD electric). Seems like 8% is about right to me.
potta_coffee 7y ago
The minimum required ballast probably wouldn't make any difference at all. We're talking about a V8 with tons of torque and horsepower.
- cartoonworld 7y ago
  >We're talking about a V8 with tons of torque and horsepower. Take a look at the market. Lots of the trucks actually sold are dumpy underpowered RWD sixes or less, and the new motors are getting smaller, better, and more fuel efficient. Doesn't sound like the market wants a heavier boat to careen down the interstate in. You can charge a whole lot more for the industrially useful V8's (which are still dumpy IMO, their job is "Don't stop turning over.") and much better diesels anyhow. At least telling uncle charlie about the OEM underslung sandbags will get quite a chuckle at Thanksgiving dinner.
munificent 7y ago
I put two sixty-pound buckets of gravel in the back corners of my pickup. That's a neglible difference in weight but a very noticeable difference in traction in cold wet weather.

kleton 7y ago

In non-coastal America, most of the pickup trucks you see on the road are empty.

ben7799 7y ago
That's true in coastal America too from what I can tell.

cartoonworld 7y ago

Everyone throws some sandbags and rock salt in the bed, next to the shovel and tinfoil blanky. Sure gonna need it when you're stuck in the ditch :) I'd take computer managed digital torque delivery over feathering my old clutch plate, if you even still get to run one of those. The dual-clutch trans will need your other foot. Mushy delivery (Sounds like an f150 to me) and out of the mud aren't really compatible.

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
> Everyone throws some sandbags and rock salt in the bed, next to the shovel and tinfoil blanky. Sure gonna need it when you're stuck in the ditch :) At least you can remove that weight when you need to. I bet it's a lot easier to tow a 4,000 pound truck out of a ditch than a 6,000 pound truck.
- cartoonworld 7y ago
  No it isn't, not at all. The tow operator is equipped for both, already. And if you're pulling with a 3k winch maybe you need to make stop at harbor freight. Anyhow, instead of faffing around with silly sandbags, a mid-engine truck is what you're dancing around. Closest thing I've heard of is the Isuzu ELF (NPR in my neck of the woods) which they've been producing since the 60's or so. The motor is kind of underneath the cab. Nobody wants what you're selling.