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What's ridiculous is there is hundreds of billions of dollars that would love to help ease the housing crunch in California, however due to utterly braindead op

What's ridiculous is there is hundreds of billions of dollars that would love to help ease the housing crunch in California, however due to utterly braindead oppressive zoning regulations, none of it ever gets spent. Apple spending 2.5 billion dollars is meaningless, that money is far better spent on lobbying to fix the underlying cause of the high rents.

londons_explore 7y ago
A lot of people don't want to fix the high rents/house prices...
- rglover 7y ago
  Insert reminder of Charlie Munger's talk on human psychology and incentive caused bias
- adrr 7y ago
  Baby Boomers are incentivized to keep house pricing high since a lot of their retirement is tied up in the value of the house.
  - meddlepal 7y ago
    Three possible outcomes (with possibility of a blend of all 3 happening): 1. Housing market collapses as boomers realize they need to retire and neither Gen X or Millenials have the money to afford the current stock at their expected price. 2. Alt-outcome #1: Government bails out boomers once #1 occurs (wouldn't surprise me because the Baby Boomer generation is one of the most selfish groups in existence and they actually vote so they tend to be angry, loud, and in control. 3. Alt-outcome #2: Foreign money scoops up all the boomer housing and we have whole new problem.
    - city41 7y ago
      There have been some early signs of #1: https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-vs-baby-boomers-big-houses-real-estate-market-problems-2019-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-vs-baby-boomers-...
    - scarface74 7y ago
      4. Alt-outcome #3: People and companies realize that there are 49 other states in the US, companies build satellite offices, and people move out of California and realize that you can buy a big house with a great school system where the cost of living vs. salaries make a lot more sense.....
      - jdhn 7y ago
        This is already happening, and in return is causing a massive drive up of housing costs in the areas where the Californians are relocating to.
        scarface74 7y ago
        Over the long term, it should even out then. Companies are already starting to "rural source" and open up branches in the middle of the country.
        bobajeff 7y ago
        Can confirm. I live in such a place where this is happening.
      - hackerbrother 7y ago
        Cali is not the only place with a housing problem?
        scarface74 7y ago
        No, but there are lot of places in the US where working class/middle class households (median income of around $70K) can both find jobs and housing they can afford. Your average Software Engineer in Atlanta for instance is definitely not struggling to find a nice (3000 square foot) brand new house in the burbs in a great school system with a mortgage that doesn’t leave them house poor.
        jedberg 7y ago
        But they have to live in oppressive heat and humidity. There is a reason California is popular -- the temperate weather. You can't really find similar weather anywhere else in the US.
  - brandmeyer 7y ago
    > ~~Baby Boomers~~ Current homeowners are incentivized... There's enough prejudice in the world to go around without misconstruing class warfare as generational warfare.
    - adrr 7y ago
      How about the people who have entered retirement failed to save and have all their money tied up in their homes according to multiple studies.
  - dawnerd 7y ago
    It's not just boomers, It's anyone that owns a home... no one wants their property to go down in value - especially if you still owe money on it.
    - bittercynic 7y ago
      I'm a counterexample, and expect I'm not alone. The level of distress many of my peers are experiencing due to the cost of housing is horrible, and I'd be happy for the value of my house to be cut in half if it would reduce the misery.
    - shsjxjbsbs 7y ago
      I’ll gladly give my house to the bank and rent again if it means everyone can afford a place to stay.
jseliger 7y ago
I have worked on a bunch of depressing homelessness service projects, and I say they're "depressing" because they money can't be used effectively due to the oppressive zoning regulations you mention. http://seliger.com/2017/08/30/l-digs-hole-slowly-economics-fills-back-proposition-hhh-facilities-program http://seliger.com/2017/08/30/l-digs-hole-slowly-economics-f... California raises hundreds of millions or billions of dollars for affordable housing, then restricts the ability of organizations to build that housing.
momokoko 7y ago
Because if you build the rows and rows of gross generic condos with corporate shops underneath that ruined Seattle, it will no longer be such a desirable place to live.
- selectodude 7y ago
  In older cities there are rows and rows of very similar looking buildings in very desirable areas. All those buildings were brand new once upon a time. Cities are cool because of the people who live there. If Seattle is so boring and generic, that says more about the people than the architecture.
  - momokoko 7y ago
    Another good point. New corporate housing development have a high bias towards boring and generic, or safe, tenants.
    - tspike 7y ago
      Maybe, but then those "boring and generic" people will move out of "interesting" architecture and allow other people the opportunity to improve the place.
- carapace 7y ago
  If you're in San Francisco, go take a look at the thing that recently went up across the street from the Zoo. The Westerly Condominium 2800 Sloat Blvd, San Francisco, CA 94116 https://goo.gl/maps/vmBTAKoN4grP5GfE7 https://goo.gl/maps/vmBTAKoN4grP5GfE7 It's ugly as sin. It's almost Brutalist but without any of the exciting style (which, I say as a fan of Brutalist architecture, is it's only saving grace.) - - - - It's very easy to see that, if you replaced all those blocks and blocks of single-family homes around it, that make up the Outer Sunset district today, with similar condo-monsters you could fit another 100,000-200,000 people out there. One huge problem with that is that there's no infrastructure for those people. Nevermind that the nearest grocery store is over a mile away (in a city that is 7x7 miles square), we could build more grocery stores. Consider the roads. The only way out of there is East on Sloat or Lincoln, or South on 19th Ave which becomes 280. The Great Highway extension to Lake Merced and Skyline Blvd is closing soon due to the beach reclaiming the area (hello climate change.) Which reminds me, the Westerly will be beachfront property in a few years. I mean the beach will reach it. Talk about underwater real estate. The whole of the Sunset is going to need a big dike. (Because that worked out so well for New Orleans.) Anyhow, I had a friend who moved from Outer Sunset to Oakland and his commute time (to downtown SF) was reduced by half. In a lot of ways it makes much more sense to build in the East bay than on the SF peninsula. (If I were starting a startup I would do it in Davis CA!) I'm just ranting now... - - - - Just converting the existing blocks to e.g. Westerly-style condos isn't the way forward that I personally want to see. The thing is so fucking ugly it makes me sad. It doesn't even try to take advantage of the incredible view. The ocean-facing side ignores the ocean. The ground floor is hostile, it looks and feels like a fortress. "There's no organic flow through. It's like an ant farm." It somehow looms over the Sloat Nursery next door despite the distance. Tiny inner courtyards that are doomed to eternal gloom. I just hate this building so much, especially compared to what it could have been.
megablast 7y ago
> due to utterly braindead oppressive zoning regulations It is not brandead for the people who live in a place to decide they want to keep it as when they bought it. It produces a lot of issues and problems, sure.

londons_explore 7y ago

A lot of people don't want to fix the high rents/house prices...

rglover 7y ago
Insert reminder of Charlie Munger's talk on human psychology and incentive caused bias
adrr 7y ago
Baby Boomers are incentivized to keep house pricing high since a lot of their retirement is tied up in the value of the house.
- meddlepal 7y ago
  Three possible outcomes (with possibility of a blend of all 3 happening): 1. Housing market collapses as boomers realize they need to retire and neither Gen X or Millenials have the money to afford the current stock at their expected price. 2. Alt-outcome #1: Government bails out boomers once #1 occurs (wouldn't surprise me because the Baby Boomer generation is one of the most selfish groups in existence and they actually vote so they tend to be angry, loud, and in control. 3. Alt-outcome #2: Foreign money scoops up all the boomer housing and we have whole new problem.
  - city41 7y ago
    There have been some early signs of #1: https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-vs-baby-boomers-big-houses-real-estate-market-problems-2019-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-vs-baby-boomers-...
  - scarface74 7y ago
    4. Alt-outcome #3: People and companies realize that there are 49 other states in the US, companies build satellite offices, and people move out of California and realize that you can buy a big house with a great school system where the cost of living vs. salaries make a lot more sense.....
    - jdhn 7y ago
      This is already happening, and in return is causing a massive drive up of housing costs in the areas where the Californians are relocating to.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Over the long term, it should even out then. Companies are already starting to "rural source" and open up branches in the middle of the country.
      - bobajeff 7y ago
        Can confirm. I live in such a place where this is happening.
    - hackerbrother 7y ago
      Cali is not the only place with a housing problem?
      - scarface74 7y ago
        No, but there are lot of places in the US where working class/middle class households (median income of around $70K) can both find jobs and housing they can afford. Your average Software Engineer in Atlanta for instance is definitely not struggling to find a nice (3000 square foot) brand new house in the burbs in a great school system with a mortgage that doesn’t leave them house poor.
        jedberg 7y ago
        But they have to live in oppressive heat and humidity. There is a reason California is popular -- the temperate weather. You can't really find similar weather anywhere else in the US.
- brandmeyer 7y ago
  > ~~Baby Boomers~~ Current homeowners are incentivized... There's enough prejudice in the world to go around without misconstruing class warfare as generational warfare.
  - adrr 7y ago
    How about the people who have entered retirement failed to save and have all their money tied up in their homes according to multiple studies.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  It's not just boomers, It's anyone that owns a home... no one wants their property to go down in value - especially if you still owe money on it.
  - bittercynic 7y ago
    I'm a counterexample, and expect I'm not alone. The level of distress many of my peers are experiencing due to the cost of housing is horrible, and I'd be happy for the value of my house to be cut in half if it would reduce the misery.
  - shsjxjbsbs 7y ago
    I’ll gladly give my house to the bank and rent again if it means everyone can afford a place to stay.

jseliger 7y ago

I have worked on a bunch of depressing homelessness service projects, and I say they're "depressing" because they money can't be used effectively due to the oppressive zoning regulations you mention. http://seliger.com/2017/08/30/l-digs-hole-slowly-economics-fills-back-proposition-hhh-facilities-program http://seliger.com/2017/08/30/l-digs-hole-slowly-economics-f... California raises hundreds of millions or billions of dollars for affordable housing, then restricts the ability of organizations to build that housing.

momokoko 7y ago

Because if you build the rows and rows of gross generic condos with corporate shops underneath that ruined Seattle, it will no longer be such a desirable place to live.

selectodude 7y ago
In older cities there are rows and rows of very similar looking buildings in very desirable areas. All those buildings were brand new once upon a time. Cities are cool because of the people who live there. If Seattle is so boring and generic, that says more about the people than the architecture.
- momokoko 7y ago
  Another good point. New corporate housing development have a high bias towards boring and generic, or safe, tenants.
  - tspike 7y ago
    Maybe, but then those "boring and generic" people will move out of "interesting" architecture and allow other people the opportunity to improve the place.
carapace 7y ago
If you're in San Francisco, go take a look at the thing that recently went up across the street from the Zoo. The Westerly Condominium 2800 Sloat Blvd, San Francisco, CA 94116 https://goo.gl/maps/vmBTAKoN4grP5GfE7 https://goo.gl/maps/vmBTAKoN4grP5GfE7 It's ugly as sin. It's almost Brutalist but without any of the exciting style (which, I say as a fan of Brutalist architecture, is it's only saving grace.) - - - - It's very easy to see that, if you replaced all those blocks and blocks of single-family homes around it, that make up the Outer Sunset district today, with similar condo-monsters you could fit another 100,000-200,000 people out there. One huge problem with that is that there's no infrastructure for those people. Nevermind that the nearest grocery store is over a mile away (in a city that is 7x7 miles square), we could build more grocery stores. Consider the roads. The only way out of there is East on Sloat or Lincoln, or South on 19th Ave which becomes 280. The Great Highway extension to Lake Merced and Skyline Blvd is closing soon due to the beach reclaiming the area (hello climate change.) Which reminds me, the Westerly will be beachfront property in a few years. I mean the beach will reach it. Talk about underwater real estate. The whole of the Sunset is going to need a big dike. (Because that worked out so well for New Orleans.) Anyhow, I had a friend who moved from Outer Sunset to Oakland and his commute time (to downtown SF) was reduced by half. In a lot of ways it makes much more sense to build in the East bay than on the SF peninsula. (If I were starting a startup I would do it in Davis CA!) I'm just ranting now... - - - - Just converting the existing blocks to e.g. Westerly-style condos isn't the way forward that I personally want to see. The thing is so fucking ugly it makes me sad. It doesn't even try to take advantage of the incredible view. The ocean-facing side ignores the ocean. The ground floor is hostile, it looks and feels like a fortress. "There's no organic flow through. It's like an ant farm." It somehow looms over the Sloat Nursery next door despite the distance. Tiny inner courtyards that are doomed to eternal gloom. I just hate this building so much, especially compared to what it could have been.

megablast 7y ago

> due to utterly braindead oppressive zoning regulations It is not brandead for the people who live in a place to decide they want to keep it as when they bought it. It produces a lot of issues and problems, sure.