5 ms·

This is absurd hyperbole. There are people working on legitimate answers to your concerns, such as the Lightning Network and other initiatives.

jcranmer 7y ago
Is Lightning usable yet? I recall hearing it's been "imminent" since at least 2017...
- askmike 7y ago
  You're clearly listening to the wrong people. It's usable for sure, but that doesn't mean billions of people can (nor want) to use it now. I'm using it just fine.
  - ppf 7y ago
    It's less usable than it's parent blockchain!
    - askmike 7y ago
      That's subjective. It's a lot cheaper and fast to send money.
      - ppf 7y ago
        What's the most I could send without network liquidity issues?
        askmike 7y ago
        I don't know the answers to this strange question. What's the most you can send to another bank account without compliance issues?
        ppf 7y ago
        Lightning network is limited to the liquidity offered by channel operators. What is the current situation like?
        askmike 7y ago
        Situation is great, note that I operate my own channels and I'm not sending millions around every day.
        scott_s 7y ago
        What do you mean by "compliance" issues? If you meant that the sum of money you send cannot trigger someone, somewhere to check to make sure the transaction is legit, and we're assuming a transfer from a "normal" bank to another, then I would guess on the order of $10,000. But companies and organizations routinely transfer millions and billions between normal banks. Yes, the transactions may cause someone or many someones to investigate, but the transfers still succeed.
        askmike 7y ago
        What does OP mean with "liquidity issues"? Lightning is a routing network, and you can connect directly to your counterparty, circumventing all potential liquidity issues. > But companies and organizations routinely transfer millions and billions between normal banks Just like companies have direct lightning channels between each other, they can send billions of they please.
        ppf 7y ago
        You're being disingenuous. A channel needs to be already funded before a transaction can happen, with an amount at least the size of the transaction. So, to transfer billions, you need billions more to first fund the channel. A quick search shows that most channels currently have less than $100 in them, limiting how much you can send without prior arrangement.
        7y ago
        alwillis 7y ago
        Most LN apps recommend sending no more than $50 USD over the Lightning Network right now. That will increase over time.
- alwillis 7y ago
  Yes; I use LN more than standard Bitcoin. There are many apps already and things are just now getting started: https://www.lapps.co/ https://www.lapps.co/
  - DagAgren 7y ago
    The only reason it works at all is that it is small and barely used by anyone at all. Scaling Lightning is an unsolved problem. It relies on finding solution to problems people have tried to solve for decades with no success.
    - askmike 7y ago
      What problems are you referring to?
- DagAgren 7y ago
  For Lightning to work at scale, we need solutions for problems that nobody on earth has solved yet, nor have any idea how to solve. Sure, it kind of sort of works for small network sizes. It will die a fiery death the second it attempts to become popular with no known way out of the mess.
arcticbull 7y ago
Lightning is worthless because it requires an on-chain transaction to open and close, so it inherits all the same scaling issues as Bitcoin.
- alwillis 7y ago
  This is false. Once a channel is funded, it can stay open for as long as it needs to. I can have a payment channel open with my local coffeeshop and we can transact dozens of times; only the final bill has to be broadcast to the bitcoin blockchain. Well connected LN nodes can be connected to hundreds of other nodes and route transactions accordingly. In the short time LN has been available, there are over 10,000 nodes and growing; the network capacity is almost $8 million USD: https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    So only 35 years?
- alwillis 7y ago
  Let me further clarify: Lightning is not worthless and has already become the basis of a new industry of apps and services. Like any low-value transaction using bitcoin, like the proverbial cup of coffee, it’s not necessary to wait for even one confirmation before doing anything. Plain vanilla lightning uses a UTXO (that’s what a bitcoin on the blockchain is, an unspent transaction) to open a channel. But you don’t have to wait 10 minutes for at least 1 confirmation before using the payment channel. I’ve received multiple LN transactions with various LN apps and it’s always been instant. Once the payment channel is opened, it stays open as long as it needs to. But the killer feature is being able to transact without requiring the underlying bitcoin blockchain; it’s only required once the parties decide to close the channel. Same thing with multi hop payments. There are many enhancements being worked on, like loop-in, loop-out and submarine swaps, which handle providing liquidity to enable transactions and the ability to make swaps between chains, like being able to “swap” between bitcoin and light coin if that was desired. There’s also work happening to enable one on-chain UTXO to fund multiple payment channels in one go. So tens of thousands of transactions can take place without touching the underlying blockchain. So there’s no lag when it comes to opening or closing a payment channel. There are no scalability issues; we’ll have more LN nodes than Bitcoin full nodes (about 55,000 worldwide) by this time next year and it’ll be fine.

jcranmer 7y ago

Is Lightning usable yet? I recall hearing it's been "imminent" since at least 2017...

askmike 7y ago
You're clearly listening to the wrong people. It's usable for sure, but that doesn't mean billions of people can (nor want) to use it now. I'm using it just fine.
- ppf 7y ago
  It's less usable than it's parent blockchain!
  - askmike 7y ago
    That's subjective. It's a lot cheaper and fast to send money.
    - ppf 7y ago
      What's the most I could send without network liquidity issues?
      - askmike 7y ago
        I don't know the answers to this strange question. What's the most you can send to another bank account without compliance issues?
        ppf 7y ago
        Lightning network is limited to the liquidity offered by channel operators. What is the current situation like?
        askmike 7y ago
        Situation is great, note that I operate my own channels and I'm not sending millions around every day.
        scott_s 7y ago
        What do you mean by "compliance" issues? If you meant that the sum of money you send cannot trigger someone, somewhere to check to make sure the transaction is legit, and we're assuming a transfer from a "normal" bank to another, then I would guess on the order of $10,000. But companies and organizations routinely transfer millions and billions between normal banks. Yes, the transactions may cause someone or many someones to investigate, but the transfers still succeed.
        askmike 7y ago
        What does OP mean with "liquidity issues"? Lightning is a routing network, and you can connect directly to your counterparty, circumventing all potential liquidity issues. > But companies and organizations routinely transfer millions and billions between normal banks Just like companies have direct lightning channels between each other, they can send billions of they please.
        ppf 7y ago
        You're being disingenuous. A channel needs to be already funded before a transaction can happen, with an amount at least the size of the transaction. So, to transfer billions, you need billions more to first fund the channel. A quick search shows that most channels currently have less than $100 in them, limiting how much you can send without prior arrangement.
        7y ago
      - alwillis 7y ago
        Most LN apps recommend sending no more than $50 USD over the Lightning Network right now. That will increase over time.
alwillis 7y ago
Yes; I use LN more than standard Bitcoin. There are many apps already and things are just now getting started: https://www.lapps.co/ https://www.lapps.co/
- DagAgren 7y ago
  The only reason it works at all is that it is small and barely used by anyone at all. Scaling Lightning is an unsolved problem. It relies on finding solution to problems people have tried to solve for decades with no success.
  - askmike 7y ago
    What problems are you referring to?
DagAgren 7y ago
For Lightning to work at scale, we need solutions for problems that nobody on earth has solved yet, nor have any idea how to solve. Sure, it kind of sort of works for small network sizes. It will die a fiery death the second it attempts to become popular with no known way out of the mess.

arcticbull 7y ago

Lightning is worthless because it requires an on-chain transaction to open and close, so it inherits all the same scaling issues as Bitcoin.

alwillis 7y ago
This is false. Once a channel is funded, it can stay open for as long as it needs to. I can have a payment channel open with my local coffeeshop and we can transact dozens of times; only the final bill has to be broadcast to the bitcoin blockchain. Well connected LN nodes can be connected to hundreds of other nodes and route transactions accordingly. In the short time LN has been available, there are over 10,000 nodes and growing; the network capacity is almost $8 million USD: https://1ml.com/statistics https://1ml.com/statistics
- arcticbull 7y ago
  So only 35 years?
alwillis 7y ago
Let me further clarify: Lightning is not worthless and has already become the basis of a new industry of apps and services. Like any low-value transaction using bitcoin, like the proverbial cup of coffee, it’s not necessary to wait for even one confirmation before doing anything. Plain vanilla lightning uses a UTXO (that’s what a bitcoin on the blockchain is, an unspent transaction) to open a channel. But you don’t have to wait 10 minutes for at least 1 confirmation before using the payment channel. I’ve received multiple LN transactions with various LN apps and it’s always been instant. Once the payment channel is opened, it stays open as long as it needs to. But the killer feature is being able to transact without requiring the underlying bitcoin blockchain; it’s only required once the parties decide to close the channel. Same thing with multi hop payments. There are many enhancements being worked on, like loop-in, loop-out and submarine swaps, which handle providing liquidity to enable transactions and the ability to make swaps between chains, like being able to “swap” between bitcoin and light coin if that was desired. There’s also work happening to enable one on-chain UTXO to fund multiple payment channels in one go. So tens of thousands of transactions can take place without touching the underlying blockchain. So there’s no lag when it comes to opening or closing a payment channel. There are no scalability issues; we’ll have more LN nodes than Bitcoin full nodes (about 55,000 worldwide) by this time next year and it’ll be fine.