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> In contrast, Jack Ma, co-founder of Chinese online shopping giant Alibaba, has championed 12-hour working days. In April 2019, he described the "996" pattern,

by notus 7y ago

> In contrast, Jack Ma, co-founder of Chinese online shopping giant Alibaba, has championed 12-hour working days. In April 2019, he described the "996" pattern, in which workers do 09:00-21:00 shifts, six days a week, as "a blessing". Yikes, that sounds depressing. > A report commissioned by the Labour Party in the UK suggested a four-day working week would be "unrealistic". The report seems to be missing the point of most 4 day work week initiatives which is that we spend a ton of time not actually working because people feel like they are expected to always be in the office between arbitrary hours. Just because people "work" less doesn't mean their output is changing. Unless your definition of work is warming a chair.

westoque 7y ago
I believe the 4 hour work week only works for brain intensive tasks where it needs significant mental effort to get things done so ample time for rest is needed to be “refreshed”. Meanwhile, if you’re building on shoes in a shoe factory, there should be a very predictable output for people working on 4 days vs 5 days. I don’t condone people to be overworking but that’s just my take.
- yabadabadoes 7y ago
  There's less and less work where you can be tired and productive. There is either a customer watching you, a great deal of variety in the task or a machine with a quickly falling TCO after your job first.
- clarry 7y ago
  Have you actually built shoes in a shoe factory? Long days of dull and repetitive work, day after day, week after week, month after month, can be super exhausting mentally as well as physically. And it does show in terms of productivity. You're right, the output might be very predictable but it doesn't mean people aren't more productive and motivated when they feel more rested and less exhausted/tired/bored. I'm a skilled machinist. And I couldn't even pretend that a full day of work didn't make me feel exhausted or that I didn't get tired and feel productivity & attentiveness taper off with time. Observing the coffee breaks when managers aren't around is enough evidence that most employees seem prone to feel the burden of long days at work. People find ways to avoid working too much -- coffee breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. I don't think it's just laziness. I would prefer to spend less time doing more focused work, stretching out a long day is always painful. Now I work an IT job and am generally more energetic, but I would still prefer to have more time & energy left for my own life and ambitions (which work probably won't ever satisfy).
arghwhat 7y ago
> Unless your definition of work is warming a chair. Breaking news: Electrically heated seats puts millions out of work.
- mlthoughts2018 7y ago
  “AI causes unemployment nightmare.”
WilliamEdward 7y ago
https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU "The name 996.ICU refers to "Work by '996', sick in ICU", an ironic saying among Chinese developers, which means that by following the "996" work schedule, you are risking yourself getting into the ICU (Intensive Care Unit)."
EpicEng 7y ago
Many jobs are "warming a chair". Pretty much all of retail and service jobs. In manufacturing you will absolutely lose productivity if you shave a day off of the schedule.
- hamandcheese 7y ago
  Have you ever worked in retail or service? I have, and I know people who still do, and it’s hard work. Restaurants, for example, will usually send you home with no pay if there is so little to do that you are warming a chair, and I’ve worked minimum wage retail jobs that do the same.
  - arghwhat 7y ago
    I think the person meant that presence is a core component of the job, and reduced presence is on its own a reduced work output.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Yes, for years. It has nothing to do with hard or easy; the business doesn't function without you there. Comparing that to a job like ours makes no sense. Hours worked is directly correlated with output, unlike engineering.
    - hinkley 7y ago
      Hours worked matters in software when the project is so mismanaged that there are regular emergency situations. Someone “has to” be around for those events. There are too many places that function like a firehouse and hours in seat matter at those places.
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        Of course people need to be present or available for emergency situations, I think everyone understands that.
jacquesm 7y ago
Fortunately, the Labour Party doesn't control businesses and every company is free to negotiate whatever contracts it feels like within the law, so a subset, such as 4 days instead of whatever the legal maximum is is perfectly possible.
- tomp 7y ago
  Is this entirely true? A lot of state benefits are linked to hours worked, e.g. if you don't work full time, you might not get full state pension, employement insurance, etc... (Although admittedly these benefits are quite minmal in the UK, at least for London.)
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    There is a minimum to qualify - unfortunately a lot of employers game the system with Zero hours contracts.
  - robocat 7y ago
    Also some professions require so many FTE years experience to progress with professional qualifications (or maintain?). I know a nurse that needs to do a minimum of 35 hours a week so that they can get full-time experience so that they can meet requirements for the next job.
devy 7y ago
> Yikes, that sounds depressing. Perhaps - but more depressing is losing a high paying job and earning a minimum wage with no hope of living a comfortably life, in that local context. Taken it out of context makes it further apart from the true meaning. Success has no shortcuts - it requires 100k+ hours of hard working and perseverance. Working leisurely is for the folks that are already prosper (read: take a look at Microsoft employees' avg. salaries.) Working less and living a good life? No, you can't have it both ways, unless you're already rich.
- drakythe 7y ago
  Why not?
- notus 7y ago
  > Success has no shortcuts - it requires 100k+ hours of hard working and perseverance. Working leisurely is for the folks that are already prosper (read: take a look at Microsoft employees' avg. salaries.) Working leisurely is for companies that have a culture that encourages it and nothing more. I don't consider myself rich (although this is kind of a relative measurement), but I definitely work leisurely and make enough money to buy a house, car, etc. I also took a lot of shortcuts, like dropping out of college. People CAN and DO have it both ways without already being rich and that should be the standard for society going forward. We should always strive to improve the experience of workers.
- Vrondi 7y ago
  12 hours days, six days a week is not a "comfortable life".
- jniedrauer 7y ago
  > Working less and living a good life? No, you can't have it both ways, unless you're already rich. As someone else said... why not? This isn't some immutable law of the universe.
- authoritarian 7y ago
  I've never had a job where I had to work more than 5 days and/or 40 hours a week. I did well in school, found a job that values work life balance, and have gone from security intern, to associate security engineer, and finally to security engineer over a 4 year period. It may not be a "high paying job" compared to someone who worked at FAANG, but I have been able to purchase a house and save for retirement in the years since I've graduated college all without ever having to kill myself by working a ridiculous amount of hours. You can absolutely have it both ways
koonsolo 7y ago
You should check out the youtube video with Jack Ma and Elon Musk. Anything that comes out of his mouth is complete bullshit and crazy. It puts anything he says in perspective. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/cy40bc/when_elon_musk_realised_chinas_richest_man_is_an/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/videos/comment...
- earenndil 7y ago
  Non amp: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/cy40bc/when_elon_musk_realised_chinas_richest_man_is_an/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/cy40bc/when_elon_mu...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
hogFeast 7y ago
Amazon did 60-hour weeks at the start, and paid the equivalent of $3/hour. If you create an "elite" culture, ironically, you can sucker employees into working for peanuts.

by notus 7y ago

westoque 7y ago

I believe the 4 hour work week only works for brain intensive tasks where it needs significant mental effort to get things done so ample time for rest is needed to be “refreshed”. Meanwhile, if you’re building on shoes in a shoe factory, there should be a very predictable output for people working on 4 days vs 5 days. I don’t condone people to be overworking but that’s just my take.

yabadabadoes 7y ago
There's less and less work where you can be tired and productive. There is either a customer watching you, a great deal of variety in the task or a machine with a quickly falling TCO after your job first.
clarry 7y ago
Have you actually built shoes in a shoe factory? Long days of dull and repetitive work, day after day, week after week, month after month, can be super exhausting mentally as well as physically. And it does show in terms of productivity. You're right, the output might be very predictable but it doesn't mean people aren't more productive and motivated when they feel more rested and less exhausted/tired/bored. I'm a skilled machinist. And I couldn't even pretend that a full day of work didn't make me feel exhausted or that I didn't get tired and feel productivity & attentiveness taper off with time. Observing the coffee breaks when managers aren't around is enough evidence that most employees seem prone to feel the burden of long days at work. People find ways to avoid working too much -- coffee breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. I don't think it's just laziness. I would prefer to spend less time doing more focused work, stretching out a long day is always painful. Now I work an IT job and am generally more energetic, but I would still prefer to have more time & energy left for my own life and ambitions (which work probably won't ever satisfy).

arghwhat 7y ago

> Unless your definition of work is warming a chair. Breaking news: Electrically heated seats puts millions out of work.

mlthoughts2018 7y ago
“AI causes unemployment nightmare.”

WilliamEdward 7y ago

https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU https://github.com/996icu/996.ICU "The name 996.ICU refers to "Work by '996', sick in ICU", an ironic saying among Chinese developers, which means that by following the "996" work schedule, you are risking yourself getting into the ICU (Intensive Care Unit)."

EpicEng 7y ago

Many jobs are "warming a chair". Pretty much all of retail and service jobs. In manufacturing you will absolutely lose productivity if you shave a day off of the schedule.

hamandcheese 7y ago
Have you ever worked in retail or service? I have, and I know people who still do, and it’s hard work. Restaurants, for example, will usually send you home with no pay if there is so little to do that you are warming a chair, and I’ve worked minimum wage retail jobs that do the same.
- arghwhat 7y ago
  I think the person meant that presence is a core component of the job, and reduced presence is on its own a reduced work output.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Yes, for years. It has nothing to do with hard or easy; the business doesn't function without you there. Comparing that to a job like ours makes no sense. Hours worked is directly correlated with output, unlike engineering.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Hours worked matters in software when the project is so mismanaged that there are regular emergency situations. Someone “has to” be around for those events. There are too many places that function like a firehouse and hours in seat matter at those places.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Of course people need to be present or available for emergency situations, I think everyone understands that.

jacquesm 7y ago

Fortunately, the Labour Party doesn't control businesses and every company is free to negotiate whatever contracts it feels like within the law, so a subset, such as 4 days instead of whatever the legal maximum is is perfectly possible.

tomp 7y ago
Is this entirely true? A lot of state benefits are linked to hours worked, e.g. if you don't work full time, you might not get full state pension, employement insurance, etc... (Although admittedly these benefits are quite minmal in the UK, at least for London.)
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  There is a minimum to qualify - unfortunately a lot of employers game the system with Zero hours contracts.
- robocat 7y ago
  Also some professions require so many FTE years experience to progress with professional qualifications (or maintain?). I know a nurse that needs to do a minimum of 35 hours a week so that they can get full-time experience so that they can meet requirements for the next job.

devy 7y ago

> Yikes, that sounds depressing. Perhaps - but more depressing is losing a high paying job and earning a minimum wage with no hope of living a comfortably life, in that local context. Taken it out of context makes it further apart from the true meaning. Success has no shortcuts - it requires 100k+ hours of hard working and perseverance. Working leisurely is for the folks that are already prosper (read: take a look at Microsoft employees' avg. salaries.) Working less and living a good life? No, you can't have it both ways, unless you're already rich.

drakythe 7y ago
Why not?
notus 7y ago
> Success has no shortcuts - it requires 100k+ hours of hard working and perseverance. Working leisurely is for the folks that are already prosper (read: take a look at Microsoft employees' avg. salaries.) Working leisurely is for companies that have a culture that encourages it and nothing more. I don't consider myself rich (although this is kind of a relative measurement), but I definitely work leisurely and make enough money to buy a house, car, etc. I also took a lot of shortcuts, like dropping out of college. People CAN and DO have it both ways without already being rich and that should be the standard for society going forward. We should always strive to improve the experience of workers.
Vrondi 7y ago
12 hours days, six days a week is not a "comfortable life".
jniedrauer 7y ago
> Working less and living a good life? No, you can't have it both ways, unless you're already rich. As someone else said... why not? This isn't some immutable law of the universe.
authoritarian 7y ago
I've never had a job where I had to work more than 5 days and/or 40 hours a week. I did well in school, found a job that values work life balance, and have gone from security intern, to associate security engineer, and finally to security engineer over a 4 year period. It may not be a "high paying job" compared to someone who worked at FAANG, but I have been able to purchase a house and save for retirement in the years since I've graduated college all without ever having to kill myself by working a ridiculous amount of hours. You can absolutely have it both ways

koonsolo 7y ago

You should check out the youtube video with Jack Ma and Elon Musk. Anything that comes out of his mouth is complete bullshit and crazy. It puts anything he says in perspective. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/cy40bc/when_elon_musk_realised_chinas_richest_man_is_an/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/videos/comment...

earenndil 7y ago
Non amp: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/cy40bc/when_elon_musk_realised_chinas_richest_man_is_an/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/cy40bc/when_elon_mu...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

hogFeast 7y ago

Amazon did 60-hour weeks at the start, and paid the equivalent of $3/hour. If you create an "elite" culture, ironically, you can sucker employees into working for peanuts.