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Would you feel the same way if Uber complied privately and the article read: "Uber shares real-time rider information with government agency"? It seems like U

by bko 7y ago

Would you feel the same way if Uber complied privately and the article read: "Uber shares real-time rider information with government agency"? It seems like Uber can't win. If they share information, they're violating the trust and privacy of their riders. If they don't they still don't care about privacy but they're now also flouting regulators.

habnds 7y ago
Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example. The way that society does stuff like this is through government bodies. The real problem here seems like a lack of trust or oversight of government bodies, which creates the impossible situation you identify.
- icebraining 7y ago
  > Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example. I don't necessarily disagree, but "data used for their benefit" covers all data used by all businesses, from your emails stored by your provider (assuming you don't self-host) to trade secrets, etc. So either we say the government should be able to access all data from everywhere (except the few that individuals store on their own) for planning purposes and such, or we must define why this data is different from other.
  - habnds 7y ago
    Fair point, I think there's a fundamental difference between the data collection done by a company like Uber or the FANG or whatever and the data that other companies collect in the normal course of business but it's hard for me to think of a good definition for the difference. There's also the idea that maybe we should have total access to a currently unthinkable amount of data [0] [0] https://www.wired.com/1996/12/fftransparent/ https://www.wired.com/1996/12/fftransparent/
rhn_mk1 7y ago
> It seems like Uber can't win. Which is fine. They chose to collect the information, and they are facing a bad look following that decision. Of course, their business model might not work without the collection, but not every business model is guaranteed to look good.
- Spivak 7y ago
  But Uber is offering a service that by its very nature requires that you expose the service provider to information you may wish to keep private. How is this the service provider's fault? It's not like they're going out of their way to add tracking into something that doesn't require it. Like this is a little nuts, if you buy one of those GPS trackers for your kids you don't get to act shocked when you find out the company has their location records. You get to be angry if they use those records for anything other than providing you service but of course they have them.
  - diffeomorphism 7y ago
    If a service "by its very nature" does shady things, maybe that service should not be offered in the first place? Critcizing users afterwards that they "can't act shocked" for having these things done to them is only playing a blame game.
    - Spivak 7y ago
      But it's not shady at all. Like these bike companies track the location of the bikes with GPS. Any when you go for a ride on one you are by proxy being tracked with GPS. Like this isn't magic or unexpected. Are you mad that an airlines have your location information while you're on the plane? Are you gonna demand the FAA stop tracking flights for rider privacy? But nobody actually getting the blame since it would be weird if anyone was actually mad at this. Does anyone seriously believe that using Find My iPhone doesn't allow Apple access to your phone's location for the purposes of showing you where it is?
    - stale2002 7y ago
      It's not shady though! That's the point. If you buy a GPS tracker, for example, by definition it will track your GPS location. Would you expect a GPS tracker to not track your GPS location? Because that is what you are saying.
jonfw 7y ago
It seems like privacy issues are inherent to Uber's business model, and there is nothing they can really do to remedy that.
- defeatist 7y ago
  That’s rather defeatist. They could use the data for setting up the ride and then throw it away after the ride is complete. Their app could keep a local record for you that’s not shared with the company. There are a ton of ways they could protect your privacy but they actively choose not to.
philipov 7y ago
No one said Uber had to be able to win.
reaperducer 7y ago
Anyone can watch you ride a shared scooter up to your house. That's public information. Privacy only comes into play if the scooter is taken inside your house. You have no legal expectation of privacy on a public street or sidewalk.
- snagglegaggle 7y ago
  No, GPS trackers on cars have in some cases been ruled a search.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    I don't need a GPS to watch someone ride a scooter.
    - snagglegaggle 7y ago
      You don't, but what the court found was that putting a GPS tracker on someone's vehicle was materially different than having a real person shadow them all day.
JohnFen 7y ago
Not the OP, but I would feel the same way, yes. My concern about my local government knowing my whereabouts is equal to my concern about the likes of Uber knowing my whereabouts, so if Uber shared this data, it wouldn't really change my behavior in any way. But I avoid using Uber-anything, in part due to Uber's data collection, so my opinion on this data sharing is probably not that important.

by bko 7y ago

habnds 7y ago

Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example. The way that society does stuff like this is through government bodies. The real problem here seems like a lack of trust or oversight of government bodies, which creates the impossible situation you identify.

icebraining 7y ago
> Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example. I don't necessarily disagree, but "data used for their benefit" covers all data used by all businesses, from your emails stored by your provider (assuming you don't self-host) to trade secrets, etc. So either we say the government should be able to access all data from everywhere (except the few that individuals store on their own) for planning purposes and such, or we must define why this data is different from other.
- habnds 7y ago
  Fair point, I think there's a fundamental difference between the data collection done by a company like Uber or the FANG or whatever and the data that other companies collect in the normal course of business but it's hard for me to think of a good definition for the difference. There's also the idea that maybe we should have total access to a currently unthinkable amount of data [0] [0] https://www.wired.com/1996/12/fftransparent/ https://www.wired.com/1996/12/fftransparent/

rhn_mk1 7y ago

> It seems like Uber can't win. Which is fine. They chose to collect the information, and they are facing a bad look following that decision. Of course, their business model might not work without the collection, but not every business model is guaranteed to look good.

Spivak 7y ago
But Uber is offering a service that by its very nature requires that you expose the service provider to information you may wish to keep private. How is this the service provider's fault? It's not like they're going out of their way to add tracking into something that doesn't require it. Like this is a little nuts, if you buy one of those GPS trackers for your kids you don't get to act shocked when you find out the company has their location records. You get to be angry if they use those records for anything other than providing you service but of course they have them.
- diffeomorphism 7y ago
  If a service "by its very nature" does shady things, maybe that service should not be offered in the first place? Critcizing users afterwards that they "can't act shocked" for having these things done to them is only playing a blame game.
  - Spivak 7y ago
    But it's not shady at all. Like these bike companies track the location of the bikes with GPS. Any when you go for a ride on one you are by proxy being tracked with GPS. Like this isn't magic or unexpected. Are you mad that an airlines have your location information while you're on the plane? Are you gonna demand the FAA stop tracking flights for rider privacy? But nobody actually getting the blame since it would be weird if anyone was actually mad at this. Does anyone seriously believe that using Find My iPhone doesn't allow Apple access to your phone's location for the purposes of showing you where it is?
  - stale2002 7y ago
    It's not shady though! That's the point. If you buy a GPS tracker, for example, by definition it will track your GPS location. Would you expect a GPS tracker to not track your GPS location? Because that is what you are saying.

jonfw 7y ago

It seems like privacy issues are inherent to Uber's business model, and there is nothing they can really do to remedy that.

defeatist 7y ago
That’s rather defeatist. They could use the data for setting up the ride and then throw it away after the ride is complete. Their app could keep a local record for you that’s not shared with the company. There are a ton of ways they could protect your privacy but they actively choose not to.

philipov 7y ago

No one said Uber had to be able to win.

reaperducer 7y ago

Anyone can watch you ride a shared scooter up to your house. That's public information. Privacy only comes into play if the scooter is taken inside your house. You have no legal expectation of privacy on a public street or sidewalk.

snagglegaggle 7y ago
No, GPS trackers on cars have in some cases been ruled a search.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  I don't need a GPS to watch someone ride a scooter.
  - snagglegaggle 7y ago
    You don't, but what the court found was that putting a GPS tracker on someone's vehicle was materially different than having a real person shadow them all day.

JohnFen 7y ago

Not the OP, but I would feel the same way, yes. My concern about my local government knowing my whereabouts is equal to my concern about the likes of Uber knowing my whereabouts, so if Uber shared this data, it wouldn't really change my behavior in any way. But I avoid using Uber-anything, in part due to Uber's data collection, so my opinion on this data sharing is probably not that important.