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Microsoft 4-day week boosts productivity and sales

492 points by shetill 7y ago

hiromichinomata 7y ago
Japan Microsoft * 2018/06 => 2019/06 Sales +32% * Operational profit & profit ratio is worse y by y. 2018/06 => 2019/06: -26% Selling products by low price is meaningless. Productivity should be measured by profit per employee, not sales per employee. https://gurafu.net/jpn/microsoft-jpn https://gurafu.net/jpn/microsoft-jpn
FillardMillmore 7y ago
Somewhat tangential, but I've been waiting for one of the Democratic candidates for President to bring up the 4-day work week as an campaign issue and extol the benefits of such a proposal. Labor unions and Democrats have achieved rights for workers in the past similar to the '4-day work week', so why not push for it? I legitimately don't know - is it because corporate lobbyists would frown upon it? Assuredly though, such a proposal would have bipartisan support among voters.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  A minimum statutory holiday allowance might be easier to sell than a 4 day week. It would also boost internal tourism so would have that advantage as well
notus 7y ago
> In contrast, Jack Ma, co-founder of Chinese online shopping giant Alibaba, has championed 12-hour working days. In April 2019, he described the "996" pattern, in which workers do 09:00-21:00 shifts, six days a week, as "a blessing". Yikes, that sounds depressing. > A report commissioned by the Labour Party in the UK suggested a four-day working week would be "unrealistic". The report seems to be missing the point of most 4 day work week initiatives which is that we spend a ton of time not actually working because people feel like they are expected to always be in the office between arbitrary hours. Just because people "work" less doesn't mean their output is changing. Unless your definition of work is warming a chair.
- westoque 7y ago
  I believe the 4 hour work week only works for brain intensive tasks where it needs significant mental effort to get things done so ample time for rest is needed to be “refreshed”. Meanwhile, if you’re building on shoes in a shoe factory, there should be a very predictable output for people working on 4 days vs 5 days. I don’t condone people to be overworking but that’s just my take.
  - yabadabadoes 7y ago
    There's less and less work where you can be tired and productive. There is either a customer watching you, a great deal of variety in the task or a machine with a quickly falling TCO after your job first.
  - clarry 7y ago
    Have you actually built shoes in a shoe factory? Long days of dull and repetitive work, day after day, week after week, month after month, can be super exhausting mentally as well as physically. And it does show in terms of productivity. You're right, the output might be very predictable but it doesn't mean people aren't more productive and motivated when they feel more rested and less exhausted/tired/bored. I'm a skilled machinist. And I couldn't even pretend that a full day of work didn't make me feel exhausted or that I didn't get tired and feel productivity & attentiveness taper off with time. Observing the coffee breaks when managers aren't around is enough evidence that most employees seem prone to feel the burden of long days at work. People find ways to avoid working too much -- coffee breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. I don't think it's just laziness. I would prefer to spend less time doing more focused work, stretching out a long day is always painful. Now I work an IT job and am generally more energetic, but I would still prefer to have more time & energy left for my own life and ambitions (which work probably won't ever satisfy).
- arghwhat 7y ago
  > Unless your definition of work is warming a chair. Breaking news: Electrically heated seats puts millions out of work.
pgt 7y ago
Duplicate? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433710 The aha comment that made me realise why this probably won't take off by @claudeganon [^1]: > "The whole arrangement is about control, preventing workers from having the time or energy to build competing enterprises, develop skills beyond a certain level, or organize against their employers. It’s the same reason why most big corps oppose a national healthcare system in the US: it keeps people locked in to their current positions and has the knock-on effect of putting downward pressure on wages and turnover expenses." [^1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21434297
- _visgean 7y ago
  I think this is better source - I was very skeptical from the original thread because the source did not seem trustworthy. I think BBC is slightly more reliable..
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    > BBC is slightly more reliable You mean in general or only in the context of this article? because the BBC is certainly not a channel devoid of bias (just check this: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-BBC-called-British-Bullshit-Corporation-by-many-people https://www.quora.com/Why-is-BBC-called-British-Bullshit-Cor...)
    - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
      https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bbc/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bbc/ Maybe a slight left bias although personally I think it's more a bias to the current sitting government. However there is plenty of UK media that sees the BBC as unfair competition and would love to see it disappear.
      - andy_ppp 7y ago
        To be fair the licence fee has served its purpose. The BBC should move to a £10 per month Netflix model and be available world wide. It'd be a very profitable business and would easily make more in revenue for its current output than it does now.
_hn_throw_away 7y ago
(This is a duplicate of a story posted this past weekend. I want to copy my comment from it for greater visibility.) Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks. I'll gladly switch to any job that offers a 4 day work week. It's one of the best perks. As someone with ADHD, work days are entirely spent getting work done. There isn't any extra slack or allotment for personal tasks. They're 100% owned by the employer. Weekends offer barely enough time to catch up with chores. There isn't enough time both to catch up and still have fun. I use vacation time to catch up on chores, so that's spent too. I don't want to spend most of my life working. I feel like a slave, and now my youth is almost gone. I don't care if it's a 10hr/4day schedule or a 9hr/4day 8hr/4day with less pay, I want an extra day for myself. I'm an excellent engineer aside from my ADHD quirks, and I'll go anywhere that offers this where I live. My own startup (I almost have the capital for a long runway) will be 9hr/4day. Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks.
- thefrog 7y ago
  You sound like a victim.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  You can contract for 4 days per week at plenty of employers. It's called a part-time job.
  - jhenkens 7y ago
    Which is the problem. We're trying to say we've generally exhausted our productive capabilities after 4 days of work per week, which is what this article was saying as well. If I've contributed my maximum amount in 4 days rather than 5, it should not be called part time. Part time should be reserved for instances where you are indeed contributing less than a full amount per week, such that you could hold two part time jobs.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      Well, if enough people do it then it will be full time. It's more about what is considered to be the norm than anything else, and of course you will get paid for four days, not five. But over time pay will go up again and then we can repeat the cycle with three days. The interesting question is not 6, 5 or 4 but what the lower limit is. I suspect still quite a bit lower than 4.
archielc 7y ago
Reminds me of another post (3 hours but everyday) by indie app developer with a good discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11277033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11277033
abledon 7y ago
Anyone working at MSFT know if the work hours vary according to your country? e.g. If you are in the US, do you punch in at 9 and go home at 5? how about Europe? If you transfer offices from Seattle USA, to say, London UK, do you suddenly get more vacation days due to EU standards? I hear Japan has cultural practices where workers are supposed to remain in the office until the boss goes home. Was it like this at MSFT before they tried the 4-day a week experiment? Or were they doing a Westernized 9-5 gig? Which in that case, would probably already be viewed as a 'dream' lifestyle to normal overworked Japanese citizens.
- sedatk 7y ago
  You don’t punch anything in MSFT US. Work hours are completely flexible. You just have to meet the deadlines and show up to the meetings.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Interesting. In some European countries time tracking for employee working hours(punching in) is mandatory by law for positions with flexible working hours for insurance purposes. IE: Did you sprain your ankle/fall off your bike during work hours or private time? If it was during work time then it's a working accident and you get all necessary treatment and long term recovery paid by the insurance. If it's during private time then it's on you and your insurance covers standard treatment but some lengthy recovery and physiotherapy costs may come out of your pocket.
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      Salaried ones? or low level office jobs like a clerk.
      - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
        All of them.
- tstrimple 7y ago
jedicode 7y ago
I'm interested in hearing from business owners. For those of you who own businesses with employees -- how do you feel about 4-day work weeks? Would it be practical for your own companies?
bluesign 7y ago
"During the month-long trial, electricity consumption had been reduced by 23% and paper printing by 59% compared with August 2018, Microsoft said." Oh I think MS didn't say that. [1] Paper and electricity was compared to August 2016, as far as I can see from the image. Actually they look like on the trend line. [1] https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1189857355908833280/Pz8s9574?format=jpg&name=600x314 https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1189857355908833280/Pz8s9574?...
nhumrich 7y ago
While I really appreciate the conclusion and goals of the study, I wonder how accurate this test really is. Imagine your boss told you, "we are going to test out 4 hour work weeks". You are naturally going to be productive during the entire experiment because you want to keep the 4 day week. If left as a permanent perk for longer than a year, does productivity slink back down below the 5 day?
- seren 7y ago
  This is called the Hawthorne Effect [0], which has also been criticized for not being rigorously measured. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
- isaacgreyed 7y ago
  Also novelty could play into it, but then again also people don't like change.
- transitionnel 7y ago
  Great question. No study is going to answer this sufficiently. But, remember history. The generation that goes through war remembers that hell and appreciates the following peace because they know the contrast. The following generations generally don't have this anchor. It makes intuitive sense when it's framed in basic mammal psychology, which is how we tend to act, despite attempts to ascribe higher meaning. There's no reason to rely on imperfectly controlled-for studies when we can generally predict a compounding chain of essentially true things. Furthermore, less work is more freedom and is preferable, whatever the rationalization of the era is. We'll probably all be better off when we see tenacious belief in "work ethic" as Stockholm Syndrome's cousin, and realize we're still getting things done because we want to be creative and useful.
doboyy 7y ago
8 days per week. 5 days of work. The calendar has been conspiring against us.
rectang 7y ago
Upstart companies can compete with such employers by offering workplace flexibility. They can score deals on highly qualified personnel for whom 40 hour workweeks are not feasible. I'm helping out aging parents. I can do that, and keep my skills up, and have a life, if I work 4 days a week or less. That's what I negotiated at my last gig — but it was with a great small company and not one of the typical major employers where 40 hour workweeks are a baseline requirement.
adelHBN 7y ago
This is a partial copy of my previous post re reduced work hours: A German startup that develops websites, apps and e-commerce platforms (Rheingans Digital Enabler), has a five-hour day work policy. Employees come to work at 8am (apparently 8am is not even strictly enforced) and leave at 1pm. Apparently productivity is kept up by cutting out the fat - cell phones are turned off, company emails are checked only twice a day and meetings are kept to 15 mins. The company was profitable in 2018, its first full year in business. A San Diego startup (Tower Paddle Boards) experimented with five-hour workdays and after two years limited it to the summer months only. This is all reported in the WSJ.
agentultra 7y ago
I'm not surprised. The only empirical evidence we have for a practice that increases productivity and reduces errors, across all forms of knowledge-based work, is sleep and low stress. As I understand it the only reason we have a 5-day, 8-hour work week is because North American rail workers' labor unions struck for it. Because workers, over tired, were losing limbs and dying on the job. It's not because it's the optimal work week for managing teams of knowledge workers. What I am surprised by is how long it has taken the MBAs and suits to realize this.
- sedatk 7y ago
  Wasn’t it Amalgamated Clothing Workers Union of America?
  - agentultra 7y ago
    It was long fought for and many parties were involved. I'm a little light in reading on the subject but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States seems fairly thorough.
doener 7y ago
Previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21440241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21440241
madduci 7y ago
I would please a 4days/8hrs instead of 5 days, but keeping the same pay. The situation is still a win/win for the employer, since my increased productivity makes more profits and therefore salaries can be kept equal (or increased, if sales go up)
dariot 7y ago
Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that the increment in productivity is due more to the restrictions in meetings' length than the 4-days weeks per se.
sramam 7y ago
> The technology giant said it was planning to implement a second Work Life Choice Challenge this winter but would not be offering the same "special leave". Given the benefits to the organization, wonder why the repeat experiment will not have the "special leave" benefit.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
troxwalt 7y ago
I would love a four day work week, but I don't think my child's daycare would be up for that. It's hard enough getting my child picked up by closing time as it is.
- chrshawkes 7y ago
  provides new opportunities for daycares that will.
McWobbleston 7y ago
I think an important point to consider in this discussion for the US is that when you look at GDP / productivity growth since the 70s alongside median wages, there's been a large steady growth in our output despite mostly stagnant wages. At this point a 4 day week rightly should be the norm, because if we're not going to be compensated for the growth we create we should be getting our time back.
longtom 7y ago
Extrapolating from my laziness, people will get used to 4 days and productivity will drop eventually. People presumably only work harder to achieve the change they want to see, namely fewer workdays.
tootahe45 7y ago
If this was viable for the bottom line, all businesses will be doing it. Idk what the point of these feel-good posts are every year.
- __turbobrew__ 7y ago
  In my experience most companies don't even measure worker performance metrics so how can they even make a rational decision to improve their bottom line? Many companies can tell you how much money they saved by implementing an open office plan and squishing more people into a smaller area, but very few can tell you the cost of having more disruptions, more noise, more context switches, and less privacy. Companies are very good at optimizing their costs (open office, hiring temp contractors, curing budgets), but many companies do a poor job optimizing for worker performance.
ewhanley 7y ago
It’s somewhat common in oil companies to offer salaried employees a 9/80 schedule. The employee works 80 hours in 9 days and gets every other Friday off. Typically people are split into A and B crews so half the office is in on any given Friday. I enjoyed this scheme for two reasons: 1) every other weekend being three days long is magical and 2) even on your Fridays on, you can usually work meeting-free since half the office is out.
jackcosgrove 7y ago
We should switch everyone to rolling weekends. It makes no sense that everyone gets the same two days off. It is such a hassle scheduling doctors appointments, receiving repairmen, going to the DMV, etc. on a weekday. The only reason we have the same two days off is for historical religious reasons. And a rolling schedule could still accommodate that for those who care. For everyone else, just put them on a rolling schedule of five (or four) days of work per week, any days, with some predictability.
- denni9th 7y ago
  Rolling weekends are problematic because it limits all social events to the evening. If no one has a shared day off, then daytime events which involve groups of people aren't possible. A 2-day weekend, with one day/half day off during the week for appointments, would be a much better system. The employee could select the day themselves to suit their preferences.
- armagon 7y ago
  Russia tried this 90 years ago. It was awful. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar#Five-day_weeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar#Five-day_weeks : "Eighty per cent of each factory's workforce was at work every day (except holidays) in an attempt to increase production while 20% were resting. But if a husband and wife, and their relatives and friends, were assigned different colors or numbers, they would not have a common rest day for their family and social life. Furthermore, machines broke down more frequently both because they were used by workers not familiar with them, and because no maintenance could be performed on machines that were never idle in factories with continuous schedules (24 hours/day every day). Five-day weeks (and later six-day weeks) "made it impossible to observe Sunday as a day of rest. This measure was deliberately introduced 'to facilitate the struggle to eliminate religion'".[25]" See also https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-dont-i-see-you-anymore/598336/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-don...
  - b0rsuk 7y ago
    I broadly agree, but with one exception: I think it should be allowed to volunteer for alternate weekend days. Working on Sunday and Saturday should be totally fine for someone who is neither Catholic nor Jewish. My country is in the process of eliminating working Sundays, and it kinda forces people to do giant shoping on Saturday, while limiting leisure options on Sunday (no aquapark etc). That kind of opt-in should be fixed in the contract.
bumby 7y ago
I'm a big fan of non-traditional work schedules but I think it takes strong leadership to implement well. At one company, I noticed Fridays were probably the least productive day as people would take breakfast breaks immediately upon showing up, extra long lunch breaks etc. Everybody was itching for the weekend. When they moved to 4 day work weeks, that same mentality just shifted to Thursday. Leadership wasn't good about holding people accountable and then suffered enormous backlash at the mere idea of moving back to a 5 day workweek to help meet the mission goals. I guess the moral is to ensure there are at least good management practices in place. Shorter workweeks aren't necessarily a productivity panacea.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
PragmaticPulp 7y ago
They only tested a 4-day workweek for 4 weeks. I was part of a similar test at a previous employer. We switched to a 4-day workweek for a few months. We were warned that management would be watching our productivity closely during the trial period. You bet we worked incredibly hard during that trial period. Everyone was working long hours to get everything done early. Ironically, some people even worked Saturdays during the trial period. No one wanted to be the person who fell behind and ruined the four day workweek trial period for everyone else. Employees are smart. If their management says they can have an extra 52 days off each year if they nail productivity during a 4-week trial period, of course they're going to be ultra productive for those 4 weeks.
- ghaff 7y ago
  In fact, although it's not super-common, some US companies have official "summer hours" where they maintain a nominal 40-hour week but Friday is a half-day or off entirely (maybe every second week). TBH, part of the theory is that a lot of people take short days on Friday anyway, especially in areas where a lot of people want to beat the weekend traffic to the beach/coast/mountains. And if it's going to tend to happen informally anyway, it's probably fairer to make it an official policy for everyone. That said, I personally mostly lean towards more vacation days I can take together rather than every week being shorter.
outside1234 7y ago
I hate to burst the bubble here, but everyone I know at Microsoft Japan is still working at least a 5-day week. It's just that they don't come into the office on the 5th day. This is actually probably the key result from this experiment. Working at home that 5th day, allows workers, especially in Japan, where people feel a huge obligation to just hold down a chair even if there isn't work to be done, to work flexibly in a manner that works for them.
- whichquestion 7y ago
  I’ve been working from home on Fridays at my current job for awhile now. I’m finding I’m vastly more productive on the days I work from home. That might be because I don’t have to commute, people aren’t bothering me, or whatever. Even if they are still working the 5th day from home, it’s still a better trade off than having to be in the office 5 days per week. That being said, 4 day work weeks would be great and I’m sure people would be just as productive, if not more so, as they are now.
b34r 7y ago
Honestly I’d rather have this over unlimited vacation.
hogFeast 7y ago
This is partly a function of Japan. They have rock-bottom productivity, and very long working days. It is very difficult to actually stop employees working 12-hour days there so knocking off a day makes perfect sense.
macspoofing 7y ago
Very skeptical about these kinds of studies that claim great productivity gains by cutting work hours by significant amounts. What is the cut-off point here? Why not make it a 3-day week and get even more productivity gains? Obviously, there are diminishing returns, what are they? And how do they differ per industry? I can tell you right now, the vast majority of jobs do require the current hourly investment (and then some). Are there industries that would see productivity gains from a 6-day or 7-day workweek (not that we want to change to that schedule - but it's worth a contrast)? Many businesses will pay out over time even though it means paying out 1.5x or 2x or even 2.5x base pay - they aren't stupid. Clearly, there is SOME benefit.
Bhilai 7y ago
I'd rather have a concept where some hours of the day or some day(s) of the week are considered "no meeting hours/day." I feel we waste a huge of amount of time meeting with "stakeholders" trying to get consensus and establish "sync" and deliver "status." I purposefully blow some meetings off and ask for meeting notes instead of sitting 30mins/hour long meetings. May be its just me but I strongly feel there needs to be less meetings. I have started to block my calendar two-three hours everyday that I use to auto reject meetings, turn of slack and focus on deep work.
raphaelj 7y ago
I've been working 4d/week for the past 2 years as a software engineer, and it would be very hard for me to go back to a full time position. I'm pretty sure I'm making more right now compared to how much I was when working full time. I explain this by having had more time to become a better engineer, as I've been able to spend time on side projects (learning new things), distancing myself from my professional duties (thus avoiding unnecessary/inefficient work), and recovering better during the weekends. Exercising more probably helped a lot too. Overall, I deeply think that more small tech companies should start offering 4d/week positions, as it will make them able to compete against bigger companies that can offer bigger compensations. Most of the best programmers I know would happily trade a 15% net income reduction for an additional day off. This is also reflected by how popular such articles get on Hacker News or Reddit. As a side note, part time work for white-collar positions is already very common in the Netherlands[1], and the country if one of the richest in the world. --- [1] https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2015/05/11/why-so-many-dutch-people-work-part-time https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2015/05/11/...
- therealdrag0 7y ago
  There's a sub-set of engineers who would provide serious value (to employers) by having regular 20% freetime to work on what they wanted. I sorta "steal" (do without asking permission) 10% of time to work on what I want (stuff not PM sanctioned bugs/features), and not only is it GREAT for mental health, it often turns out to be greatly appreciated by others at work. There's always stuff that many people wish for but never gets prioritized. Or just me cross-training myself in other languages and frameworks so I can support a larger set of code-bases also provides a lot of value. But not everyone works like this. Many people just take any extra slack they can get and use it to chill. :shrug:
anoplus 7y ago
I think what if this kind of post will be get more upvotes? I believe companies will eventually move down the shorter work week path when they find its actually productive. I believe 4-day week companies will attract great talents.
hindsightbias 7y ago
It would be nice if HN could tag commenters with ceo, mgr, lead, worker titles to see the distribution of support.
RubberShoes 7y ago
I have found working from home just one day every two weeks or so relieves me of a ton of stress and greatly helps the rest of the working days in a week. It’s not about working one less day but giving me the freedom to relax and work in my own environment.
greggman2 7y ago
I'm all for less work mostly but where is the medium. If they had done 3 days a week would their productivity jump another 25%? Two days a week? One? I'll bet at zero they have infinite productivity? For me often my day is just busy. Update that library, write test, ask for review, start updating deps for if/when review passes. review passed. put in CI queue. Made through que. Submit deps version bump for review. Review approved, add to CI. Oh oh something broke. repeat. Entire days are just busy work. Working less hours would not remove the busy work or make it more productive. Maybe it's a bad workflow. In any case yes , would love to work less hours but still questioning where the optimum is. Why 4 days? Why 8hrs? Why not 2 days for 2hrs etc... Is 4 only special in relation to 5? Is it 4 on 3 off or would 2 on 1 of 2 on 2 off be better? Or On Off On Off On Off Off. Is 6hrs better? 4? 10?
Timberwolf 7y ago
Something I've noticed about the culture of "work through midnight if that's what it takes" is how much work gets thrown away. I worked at a few places with this culture (startup and established), and it seemed entirely normal for something to be the most urgent thing ever at 9pm and then, "actually, we've decided to approach it differently" the next morning. I think this is because the impact of an error of commission is low. The worst that happens is people work a bit later, and since they're always working later... well, it's fine to build things that don't need building and have meetings about things that aren't happening. Nobody worries about wasting time because it's just pushing work into a buffer that is treated as infinite. But with limited incentive to select high-value work, it's easy to fall into a trap of working 12+ hour days entirely on low-value stuff. "Go home on time" cultures are forced to prioritise to be effective. If you know you're going to shut down the laptop with tasks unfinished, you have to make a choice on which tasks you're willing to accept not getting done today. In this situation there is a significant impact of an error of commission, because it means something more important not getting done. IME this results in higher-value work overall, because the organisational instinct tends toward scrutinising everything to see if it's worth doing, not just the things which will take you past 5pm. I've not been fortunate enough to work somewhere with a 4 day week, only places with generous working hours, but my feeling is it would be a further improvement on this. (Especially since with more free time, people are not going to assign such a high importance to doing their finances, keeping track of Reddit, daydreaming about DIY or any of the other thousands of things people in long-hours cultures do on company time).
agent86 7y ago
I think it is good for Microsoft and others to begin experimenting with changing the default work arrangement. This may give them a significant advantage moving forward. By 2030 all "baby boomers" will be older than 65. These people will need to be cared for on a scale that we have never encountered before. Companies will need to find a way to continue to conduct business while the workforce contends with caring for the aging population. Work-at-Home, Flex Schedule, and 4 Day Weeks and other things that are currently seen as perks can all become part of a core solution to that problem. Companies can essentially beta the potential solutions as a perk today. I wouldn't be surprised to see elder care benefits start to appear in company benefit packages as well. Currently parental/birth benefits are a distinguishing factor in HR circles and gaining traction. I expect elder care benefits to take a similar course as caring for the aging population increases in burden.
HunOL 7y ago
Probably because I have no children and I am not weekend-traveler but I really don't get why some people are so excited about 4 days week. My utilization of hours during weekends is horrible. What I find attractive is idea of working less hours during normal week. Having one more hour at the end of the day sounds way better for me. Moreover from productivity perspective I believe it's better too because nobody is working 8 hours with maximum productivity.
abj 7y ago
If offered 4 days a week (8 hours/4 days) it sounds like a lot of people would join a new company. I would jump in a heartbeat. Why aren't smaller startups already using this tactic to lure away "talent"?
kwhitefoot 7y ago
We tried a three day week in the UK, 1974, during the oil crisis. I vaguely remember seeing articles, that I now cannot find, that claimed that the forty percent reduction in days worked resulted in much less than a forty percent reduction in production.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  There was a decent BBC documentary about this fairly recently. From memory the 40% reduction in working hours caused low single digit drop in productivity. Wouldn't be surprised to find if it were repeated without all the personal impacts that the three day week brought to find productivity rise markedly. Here's a government pdf on productivity. The three day week doesn't stand out on any of the graphs, it's just lost in the regular variation. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06492/SN06492.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06...
devenops 7y ago
The part I don't get is they tried this experiment, claim phenomenal results and then just went back to doing the usual? If it worked so well wouldn't you keep doing it?
femto113 7y ago
I'd love to see them do an experiment that compressed hours per day instead of days per week. I used to do consulting around the world for an American software company and Japan is the only place where I saw people straight up fall asleep in meetings. When I asked my hosts about this phenomenon they thought for awhile and then attributed it to a culture of "presence", which was basically a layered phenomenon of trying to be in the office before (and/or stay later than) other workers in your hierarchy. Seems this was a more obvious thing to measure than productivity since your boss notices precisely when you come in or leave. Tack on long commute times and pretty soon the workday has expanded to the point where getting enough sleep is physically impossible.

492 points by shetill 7y ago

Japan Microsoft * 2018/06 => 2019/06 Sales +32% * Operational profit & profit ratio is worse y by y. 2018/06 => 2019/06: -26% Selling products by low price is meaningless. Productivity should be measured by profit per employee, not sales per employee. https://gurafu.net/jpn/microsoft-jpn https://gurafu.net/jpn/microsoft-jpn

FillardMillmore 7y ago

Somewhat tangential, but I've been waiting for one of the Democratic candidates for President to bring up the 4-day work week as an campaign issue and extol the benefits of such a proposal. Labor unions and Democrats have achieved rights for workers in the past similar to the '4-day work week', so why not push for it? I legitimately don't know - is it because corporate lobbyists would frown upon it? Assuredly though, such a proposal would have bipartisan support among voters.

C1sc0cat 7y ago
A minimum statutory holiday allowance might be easier to sell than a 4 day week. It would also boost internal tourism so would have that advantage as well

notus 7y ago

> In contrast, Jack Ma, co-founder of Chinese online shopping giant Alibaba, has championed 12-hour working days. In April 2019, he described the "996" pattern, in which workers do 09:00-21:00 shifts, six days a week, as "a blessing". Yikes, that sounds depressing. > A report commissioned by the Labour Party in the UK suggested a four-day working week would be "unrealistic". The report seems to be missing the point of most 4 day work week initiatives which is that we spend a ton of time not actually working because people feel like they are expected to always be in the office between arbitrary hours. Just because people "work" less doesn't mean their output is changing. Unless your definition of work is warming a chair.

westoque 7y ago
I believe the 4 hour work week only works for brain intensive tasks where it needs significant mental effort to get things done so ample time for rest is needed to be “refreshed”. Meanwhile, if you’re building on shoes in a shoe factory, there should be a very predictable output for people working on 4 days vs 5 days. I don’t condone people to be overworking but that’s just my take.
- yabadabadoes 7y ago
  There's less and less work where you can be tired and productive. There is either a customer watching you, a great deal of variety in the task or a machine with a quickly falling TCO after your job first.
- clarry 7y ago
  Have you actually built shoes in a shoe factory? Long days of dull and repetitive work, day after day, week after week, month after month, can be super exhausting mentally as well as physically. And it does show in terms of productivity. You're right, the output might be very predictable but it doesn't mean people aren't more productive and motivated when they feel more rested and less exhausted/tired/bored. I'm a skilled machinist. And I couldn't even pretend that a full day of work didn't make me feel exhausted or that I didn't get tired and feel productivity & attentiveness taper off with time. Observing the coffee breaks when managers aren't around is enough evidence that most employees seem prone to feel the burden of long days at work. People find ways to avoid working too much -- coffee breaks, bathroom breaks, etc. I don't think it's just laziness. I would prefer to spend less time doing more focused work, stretching out a long day is always painful. Now I work an IT job and am generally more energetic, but I would still prefer to have more time & energy left for my own life and ambitions (which work probably won't ever satisfy).
arghwhat 7y ago
> Unless your definition of work is warming a chair. Breaking news: Electrically heated seats puts millions out of work.

pgt 7y ago

Duplicate? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21433710 The aha comment that made me realise why this probably won't take off by @claudeganon [^1]: > "The whole arrangement is about control, preventing workers from having the time or energy to build competing enterprises, develop skills beyond a certain level, or organize against their employers. It’s the same reason why most big corps oppose a national healthcare system in the US: it keeps people locked in to their current positions and has the knock-on effect of putting downward pressure on wages and turnover expenses." [^1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21434297

_visgean 7y ago
I think this is better source - I was very skeptical from the original thread because the source did not seem trustworthy. I think BBC is slightly more reliable..
- ekianjo 7y ago
  > BBC is slightly more reliable You mean in general or only in the context of this article? because the BBC is certainly not a channel devoid of bias (just check this: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-BBC-called-British-Bullshit-Corporation-by-many-people https://www.quora.com/Why-is-BBC-called-British-Bullshit-Cor...)
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bbc/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/bbc/ Maybe a slight left bias although personally I think it's more a bias to the current sitting government. However there is plenty of UK media that sees the BBC as unfair competition and would love to see it disappear.
    - andy_ppp 7y ago
      To be fair the licence fee has served its purpose. The BBC should move to a £10 per month Netflix model and be available world wide. It'd be a very profitable business and would easily make more in revenue for its current output than it does now.

_hn_throw_away 7y ago

(This is a duplicate of a story posted this past weekend. I want to copy my comment from it for greater visibility.) Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks. I'll gladly switch to any job that offers a 4 day work week. It's one of the best perks. As someone with ADHD, work days are entirely spent getting work done. There isn't any extra slack or allotment for personal tasks. They're 100% owned by the employer. Weekends offer barely enough time to catch up with chores. There isn't enough time both to catch up and still have fun. I use vacation time to catch up on chores, so that's spent too. I don't want to spend most of my life working. I feel like a slave, and now my youth is almost gone. I don't care if it's a 10hr/4day schedule or a 9hr/4day 8hr/4day with less pay, I want an extra day for myself. I'm an excellent engineer aside from my ADHD quirks, and I'll go anywhere that offers this where I live. My own startup (I almost have the capital for a long runway) will be 9hr/4day. Fuck everything about 5 day work weeks.

thefrog 7y ago
You sound like a victim.
jacquesm 7y ago
You can contract for 4 days per week at plenty of employers. It's called a part-time job.
- jhenkens 7y ago
  Which is the problem. We're trying to say we've generally exhausted our productive capabilities after 4 days of work per week, which is what this article was saying as well. If I've contributed my maximum amount in 4 days rather than 5, it should not be called part time. Part time should be reserved for instances where you are indeed contributing less than a full amount per week, such that you could hold two part time jobs.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    Well, if enough people do it then it will be full time. It's more about what is considered to be the norm than anything else, and of course you will get paid for four days, not five. But over time pay will go up again and then we can repeat the cycle with three days. The interesting question is not 6, 5 or 4 but what the lower limit is. I suspect still quite a bit lower than 4.

archielc 7y ago

Reminds me of another post (3 hours but everyday) by indie app developer with a good discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11277033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11277033

abledon 7y ago

Anyone working at MSFT know if the work hours vary according to your country? e.g. If you are in the US, do you punch in at 9 and go home at 5? how about Europe? If you transfer offices from Seattle USA, to say, London UK, do you suddenly get more vacation days due to EU standards? I hear Japan has cultural practices where workers are supposed to remain in the office until the boss goes home. Was it like this at MSFT before they tried the 4-day a week experiment? Or were they doing a Westernized 9-5 gig? Which in that case, would probably already be viewed as a 'dream' lifestyle to normal overworked Japanese citizens.

sedatk 7y ago
You don’t punch anything in MSFT US. Work hours are completely flexible. You just have to meet the deadlines and show up to the meetings.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Interesting. In some European countries time tracking for employee working hours(punching in) is mandatory by law for positions with flexible working hours for insurance purposes. IE: Did you sprain your ankle/fall off your bike during work hours or private time? If it was during work time then it's a working accident and you get all necessary treatment and long term recovery paid by the insurance. If it's during private time then it's on you and your insurance covers standard treatment but some lengthy recovery and physiotherapy costs may come out of your pocket.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    Salaried ones? or low level office jobs like a clerk.
    - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
      All of them.
tstrimple 7y ago

jedicode 7y ago

I'm interested in hearing from business owners. For those of you who own businesses with employees -- how do you feel about 4-day work weeks? Would it be practical for your own companies?

bluesign 7y ago

"During the month-long trial, electricity consumption had been reduced by 23% and paper printing by 59% compared with August 2018, Microsoft said." Oh I think MS didn't say that. [1] Paper and electricity was compared to August 2016, as far as I can see from the image. Actually they look like on the trend line. [1] https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1189857355908833280/Pz8s9574?format=jpg&name=600x314 https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1189857355908833280/Pz8s9574?...

nhumrich 7y ago

While I really appreciate the conclusion and goals of the study, I wonder how accurate this test really is. Imagine your boss told you, "we are going to test out 4 hour work weeks". You are naturally going to be productive during the entire experiment because you want to keep the 4 day week. If left as a permanent perk for longer than a year, does productivity slink back down below the 5 day?

seren 7y ago
This is called the Hawthorne Effect [0], which has also been criticized for not being rigorously measured. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawthorne_effect
isaacgreyed 7y ago
Also novelty could play into it, but then again also people don't like change.
transitionnel 7y ago
Great question. No study is going to answer this sufficiently. But, remember history. The generation that goes through war remembers that hell and appreciates the following peace because they know the contrast. The following generations generally don't have this anchor. It makes intuitive sense when it's framed in basic mammal psychology, which is how we tend to act, despite attempts to ascribe higher meaning. There's no reason to rely on imperfectly controlled-for studies when we can generally predict a compounding chain of essentially true things. Furthermore, less work is more freedom and is preferable, whatever the rationalization of the era is. We'll probably all be better off when we see tenacious belief in "work ethic" as Stockholm Syndrome's cousin, and realize we're still getting things done because we want to be creative and useful.

doboyy 7y ago

8 days per week. 5 days of work. The calendar has been conspiring against us.

rectang 7y ago

Upstart companies can compete with such employers by offering workplace flexibility. They can score deals on highly qualified personnel for whom 40 hour workweeks are not feasible. I'm helping out aging parents. I can do that, and keep my skills up, and have a life, if I work 4 days a week or less. That's what I negotiated at my last gig — but it was with a great small company and not one of the typical major employers where 40 hour workweeks are a baseline requirement.

adelHBN 7y ago

This is a partial copy of my previous post re reduced work hours: A German startup that develops websites, apps and e-commerce platforms (Rheingans Digital Enabler), has a five-hour day work policy. Employees come to work at 8am (apparently 8am is not even strictly enforced) and leave at 1pm. Apparently productivity is kept up by cutting out the fat - cell phones are turned off, company emails are checked only twice a day and meetings are kept to 15 mins. The company was profitable in 2018, its first full year in business. A San Diego startup (Tower Paddle Boards) experimented with five-hour workdays and after two years limited it to the summer months only. This is all reported in the WSJ.

agentultra 7y ago

I'm not surprised. The only empirical evidence we have for a practice that increases productivity and reduces errors, across all forms of knowledge-based work, is sleep and low stress. As I understand it the only reason we have a 5-day, 8-hour work week is because North American rail workers' labor unions struck for it. Because workers, over tired, were losing limbs and dying on the job. It's not because it's the optimal work week for managing teams of knowledge workers. What I am surprised by is how long it has taken the MBAs and suits to realize this.

sedatk 7y ago
Wasn’t it Amalgamated Clothing Workers Union of America?
- agentultra 7y ago
  It was long fought for and many parties were involved. I'm a little light in reading on the subject but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States seems fairly thorough.

doener 7y ago

Previous post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21440241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21440241

madduci 7y ago

I would please a 4days/8hrs instead of 5 days, but keeping the same pay. The situation is still a win/win for the employer, since my increased productivity makes more profits and therefore salaries can be kept equal (or increased, if sales go up)

dariot 7y ago

Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that the increment in productivity is due more to the restrictions in meetings' length than the 4-days weeks per se.

sramam 7y ago

> The technology giant said it was planning to implement a second Work Life Choice Challenge this winter but would not be offering the same "special leave". Given the benefits to the organization, wonder why the repeat experiment will not have the "special leave" benefit.

deleted 7y ago

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troxwalt 7y ago

I would love a four day work week, but I don't think my child's daycare would be up for that. It's hard enough getting my child picked up by closing time as it is.

chrshawkes 7y ago
provides new opportunities for daycares that will.

McWobbleston 7y ago

I think an important point to consider in this discussion for the US is that when you look at GDP / productivity growth since the 70s alongside median wages, there's been a large steady growth in our output despite mostly stagnant wages. At this point a 4 day week rightly should be the norm, because if we're not going to be compensated for the growth we create we should be getting our time back.

longtom 7y ago

Extrapolating from my laziness, people will get used to 4 days and productivity will drop eventually. People presumably only work harder to achieve the change they want to see, namely fewer workdays.

tootahe45 7y ago

If this was viable for the bottom line, all businesses will be doing it. Idk what the point of these feel-good posts are every year.

__turbobrew__ 7y ago
In my experience most companies don't even measure worker performance metrics so how can they even make a rational decision to improve their bottom line? Many companies can tell you how much money they saved by implementing an open office plan and squishing more people into a smaller area, but very few can tell you the cost of having more disruptions, more noise, more context switches, and less privacy. Companies are very good at optimizing their costs (open office, hiring temp contractors, curing budgets), but many companies do a poor job optimizing for worker performance.

ewhanley 7y ago

It’s somewhat common in oil companies to offer salaried employees a 9/80 schedule. The employee works 80 hours in 9 days and gets every other Friday off. Typically people are split into A and B crews so half the office is in on any given Friday. I enjoyed this scheme for two reasons: 1) every other weekend being three days long is magical and 2) even on your Fridays on, you can usually work meeting-free since half the office is out.

jackcosgrove 7y ago

We should switch everyone to rolling weekends. It makes no sense that everyone gets the same two days off. It is such a hassle scheduling doctors appointments, receiving repairmen, going to the DMV, etc. on a weekday. The only reason we have the same two days off is for historical religious reasons. And a rolling schedule could still accommodate that for those who care. For everyone else, just put them on a rolling schedule of five (or four) days of work per week, any days, with some predictability.

denni9th 7y ago
Rolling weekends are problematic because it limits all social events to the evening. If no one has a shared day off, then daytime events which involve groups of people aren't possible. A 2-day weekend, with one day/half day off during the week for appointments, would be a much better system. The employee could select the day themselves to suit their preferences.
armagon 7y ago
Russia tried this 90 years ago. It was awful. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar#Five-day_weeks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_calendar#Five-day_weeks : "Eighty per cent of each factory's workforce was at work every day (except holidays) in an attempt to increase production while 20% were resting. But if a husband and wife, and their relatives and friends, were assigned different colors or numbers, they would not have a common rest day for their family and social life. Furthermore, machines broke down more frequently both because they were used by workers not familiar with them, and because no maintenance could be performed on machines that were never idle in factories with continuous schedules (24 hours/day every day). Five-day weeks (and later six-day weeks) "made it impossible to observe Sunday as a day of rest. This measure was deliberately introduced 'to facilitate the struggle to eliminate religion'".[25]" See also https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-dont-i-see-you-anymore/598336/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-don...
- b0rsuk 7y ago
  I broadly agree, but with one exception: I think it should be allowed to volunteer for alternate weekend days. Working on Sunday and Saturday should be totally fine for someone who is neither Catholic nor Jewish. My country is in the process of eliminating working Sundays, and it kinda forces people to do giant shoping on Saturday, while limiting leisure options on Sunday (no aquapark etc). That kind of opt-in should be fixed in the contract.

bumby 7y ago

I'm a big fan of non-traditional work schedules but I think it takes strong leadership to implement well. At one company, I noticed Fridays were probably the least productive day as people would take breakfast breaks immediately upon showing up, extra long lunch breaks etc. Everybody was itching for the weekend. When they moved to 4 day work weeks, that same mentality just shifted to Thursday. Leadership wasn't good about holding people accountable and then suffered enormous backlash at the mere idea of moving back to a 5 day workweek to help meet the mission goals. I guess the moral is to ensure there are at least good management practices in place. Shorter workweeks aren't necessarily a productivity panacea.

deleted 7y ago
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PragmaticPulp 7y ago

They only tested a 4-day workweek for 4 weeks. I was part of a similar test at a previous employer. We switched to a 4-day workweek for a few months. We were warned that management would be watching our productivity closely during the trial period. You bet we worked incredibly hard during that trial period. Everyone was working long hours to get everything done early. Ironically, some people even worked Saturdays during the trial period. No one wanted to be the person who fell behind and ruined the four day workweek trial period for everyone else. Employees are smart. If their management says they can have an extra 52 days off each year if they nail productivity during a 4-week trial period, of course they're going to be ultra productive for those 4 weeks.

ghaff 7y ago
In fact, although it's not super-common, some US companies have official "summer hours" where they maintain a nominal 40-hour week but Friday is a half-day or off entirely (maybe every second week). TBH, part of the theory is that a lot of people take short days on Friday anyway, especially in areas where a lot of people want to beat the weekend traffic to the beach/coast/mountains. And if it's going to tend to happen informally anyway, it's probably fairer to make it an official policy for everyone. That said, I personally mostly lean towards more vacation days I can take together rather than every week being shorter.

outside1234 7y ago

I hate to burst the bubble here, but everyone I know at Microsoft Japan is still working at least a 5-day week. It's just that they don't come into the office on the 5th day. This is actually probably the key result from this experiment. Working at home that 5th day, allows workers, especially in Japan, where people feel a huge obligation to just hold down a chair even if there isn't work to be done, to work flexibly in a manner that works for them.

whichquestion 7y ago
I’ve been working from home on Fridays at my current job for awhile now. I’m finding I’m vastly more productive on the days I work from home. That might be because I don’t have to commute, people aren’t bothering me, or whatever. Even if they are still working the 5th day from home, it’s still a better trade off than having to be in the office 5 days per week. That being said, 4 day work weeks would be great and I’m sure people would be just as productive, if not more so, as they are now.

b34r 7y ago

Honestly I’d rather have this over unlimited vacation.

hogFeast 7y ago

This is partly a function of Japan. They have rock-bottom productivity, and very long working days. It is very difficult to actually stop employees working 12-hour days there so knocking off a day makes perfect sense.

macspoofing 7y ago

Very skeptical about these kinds of studies that claim great productivity gains by cutting work hours by significant amounts. What is the cut-off point here? Why not make it a 3-day week and get even more productivity gains? Obviously, there are diminishing returns, what are they? And how do they differ per industry? I can tell you right now, the vast majority of jobs do require the current hourly investment (and then some). Are there industries that would see productivity gains from a 6-day or 7-day workweek (not that we want to change to that schedule - but it's worth a contrast)? Many businesses will pay out over time even though it means paying out 1.5x or 2x or even 2.5x base pay - they aren't stupid. Clearly, there is SOME benefit.

Bhilai 7y ago

I'd rather have a concept where some hours of the day or some day(s) of the week are considered "no meeting hours/day." I feel we waste a huge of amount of time meeting with "stakeholders" trying to get consensus and establish "sync" and deliver "status." I purposefully blow some meetings off and ask for meeting notes instead of sitting 30mins/hour long meetings. May be its just me but I strongly feel there needs to be less meetings. I have started to block my calendar two-three hours everyday that I use to auto reject meetings, turn of slack and focus on deep work.

raphaelj 7y ago

I've been working 4d/week for the past 2 years as a software engineer, and it would be very hard for me to go back to a full time position. I'm pretty sure I'm making more right now compared to how much I was when working full time. I explain this by having had more time to become a better engineer, as I've been able to spend time on side projects (learning new things), distancing myself from my professional duties (thus avoiding unnecessary/inefficient work), and recovering better during the weekends. Exercising more probably helped a lot too. Overall, I deeply think that more small tech companies should start offering 4d/week positions, as it will make them able to compete against bigger companies that can offer bigger compensations. Most of the best programmers I know would happily trade a 15% net income reduction for an additional day off. This is also reflected by how popular such articles get on Hacker News or Reddit. As a side note, part time work for white-collar positions is already very common in the Netherlands[1], and the country if one of the richest in the world. --- [1] https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2015/05/11/why-so-many-dutch-people-work-part-time https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2015/05/11/...

therealdrag0 7y ago
There's a sub-set of engineers who would provide serious value (to employers) by having regular 20% freetime to work on what they wanted. I sorta "steal" (do without asking permission) 10% of time to work on what I want (stuff not PM sanctioned bugs/features), and not only is it GREAT for mental health, it often turns out to be greatly appreciated by others at work. There's always stuff that many people wish for but never gets prioritized. Or just me cross-training myself in other languages and frameworks so I can support a larger set of code-bases also provides a lot of value. But not everyone works like this. Many people just take any extra slack they can get and use it to chill. :shrug:

anoplus 7y ago

I think what if this kind of post will be get more upvotes? I believe companies will eventually move down the shorter work week path when they find its actually productive. I believe 4-day week companies will attract great talents.

hindsightbias 7y ago

It would be nice if HN could tag commenters with ceo, mgr, lead, worker titles to see the distribution of support.

RubberShoes 7y ago

I have found working from home just one day every two weeks or so relieves me of a ton of stress and greatly helps the rest of the working days in a week. It’s not about working one less day but giving me the freedom to relax and work in my own environment.

greggman2 7y ago

I'm all for less work mostly but where is the medium. If they had done 3 days a week would their productivity jump another 25%? Two days a week? One? I'll bet at zero they have infinite productivity? For me often my day is just busy. Update that library, write test, ask for review, start updating deps for if/when review passes. review passed. put in CI queue. Made through que. Submit deps version bump for review. Review approved, add to CI. Oh oh something broke. repeat. Entire days are just busy work. Working less hours would not remove the busy work or make it more productive. Maybe it's a bad workflow. In any case yes , would love to work less hours but still questioning where the optimum is. Why 4 days? Why 8hrs? Why not 2 days for 2hrs etc... Is 4 only special in relation to 5? Is it 4 on 3 off or would 2 on 1 of 2 on 2 off be better? Or On Off On Off On Off Off. Is 6hrs better? 4? 10?

Timberwolf 7y ago

Something I've noticed about the culture of "work through midnight if that's what it takes" is how much work gets thrown away. I worked at a few places with this culture (startup and established), and it seemed entirely normal for something to be the most urgent thing ever at 9pm and then, "actually, we've decided to approach it differently" the next morning. I think this is because the impact of an error of commission is low. The worst that happens is people work a bit later, and since they're always working later... well, it's fine to build things that don't need building and have meetings about things that aren't happening. Nobody worries about wasting time because it's just pushing work into a buffer that is treated as infinite. But with limited incentive to select high-value work, it's easy to fall into a trap of working 12+ hour days entirely on low-value stuff. "Go home on time" cultures are forced to prioritise to be effective. If you know you're going to shut down the laptop with tasks unfinished, you have to make a choice on which tasks you're willing to accept not getting done today. In this situation there is a significant impact of an error of commission, because it means something more important not getting done. IME this results in higher-value work overall, because the organisational instinct tends toward scrutinising everything to see if it's worth doing, not just the things which will take you past 5pm. I've not been fortunate enough to work somewhere with a 4 day week, only places with generous working hours, but my feeling is it would be a further improvement on this. (Especially since with more free time, people are not going to assign such a high importance to doing their finances, keeping track of Reddit, daydreaming about DIY or any of the other thousands of things people in long-hours cultures do on company time).

agent86 7y ago

I think it is good for Microsoft and others to begin experimenting with changing the default work arrangement. This may give them a significant advantage moving forward. By 2030 all "baby boomers" will be older than 65. These people will need to be cared for on a scale that we have never encountered before. Companies will need to find a way to continue to conduct business while the workforce contends with caring for the aging population. Work-at-Home, Flex Schedule, and 4 Day Weeks and other things that are currently seen as perks can all become part of a core solution to that problem. Companies can essentially beta the potential solutions as a perk today. I wouldn't be surprised to see elder care benefits start to appear in company benefit packages as well. Currently parental/birth benefits are a distinguishing factor in HR circles and gaining traction. I expect elder care benefits to take a similar course as caring for the aging population increases in burden.

HunOL 7y ago

Probably because I have no children and I am not weekend-traveler but I really don't get why some people are so excited about 4 days week. My utilization of hours during weekends is horrible. What I find attractive is idea of working less hours during normal week. Having one more hour at the end of the day sounds way better for me. Moreover from productivity perspective I believe it's better too because nobody is working 8 hours with maximum productivity.

abj 7y ago

If offered 4 days a week (8 hours/4 days) it sounds like a lot of people would join a new company. I would jump in a heartbeat. Why aren't smaller startups already using this tactic to lure away "talent"?

kwhitefoot 7y ago

We tried a three day week in the UK, 1974, during the oil crisis. I vaguely remember seeing articles, that I now cannot find, that claimed that the forty percent reduction in days worked resulted in much less than a forty percent reduction in production.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
There was a decent BBC documentary about this fairly recently. From memory the 40% reduction in working hours caused low single digit drop in productivity. Wouldn't be surprised to find if it were repeated without all the personal impacts that the three day week brought to find productivity rise markedly. Here's a government pdf on productivity. The three day week doesn't stand out on any of the graphs, it's just lost in the regular variation. https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06492/SN06492.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06...

devenops 7y ago

The part I don't get is they tried this experiment, claim phenomenal results and then just went back to doing the usual? If it worked so well wouldn't you keep doing it?

femto113 7y ago

I'd love to see them do an experiment that compressed hours per day instead of days per week. I used to do consulting around the world for an American software company and Japan is the only place where I saw people straight up fall asleep in meetings. When I asked my hosts about this phenomenon they thought for awhile and then attributed it to a culture of "presence", which was basically a layered phenomenon of trying to be in the office before (and/or stay later than) other workers in your hierarchy. Seems this was a more obvious thing to measure than productivity since your boss notices precisely when you come in or leave. Tack on long commute times and pretty soon the workday has expanded to the point where getting enough sleep is physically impossible.