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> Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. Right, if you're a U.S citizen maybe not, otherwise they'll do that

> Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. Right, if you're a U.S citizen maybe not, otherwise they'll do that and worse, read on "enhanced integrations", kidnappings etc. So the U.S is better domestically, (still employs prisoners as effectively slave labor, treats minorities harshly, lets people die due to lack of healthcare...), but it is worse in terms of foreign policy, so in the end it seems to be a bit of a wash, doesn't it?

ByzantineO6 7y ago
you are Howard Zinn, and I want my prize!
habnds 7y ago
a free press and free elections make it not so much of a wash
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  Expect the 'free' press is more akin to 'corporate press' & the elections results in the person getting the most votes not being elected President.
  - habnds 7y ago
    I don't understand how these things somehow result in there being no difference between the US and China. Of course it's an imperfect system. Try handing out flyers about civil rights in Washington DC and then try it in Beijing. Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not.
    - cyphar 7y ago
      > Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. The obvious counter-example to this argument is Switzerland, which has been a direct democracy (or as close as you can get) for more than 120 years. Brexit wasn't caused by the system by which the vote was conducted. It was a genuine public sentiment that had been cultivated through decades of media propaganda and scapegoating by politicians. Yes, the fact it was a single-issue vote made the issue more prominent, but it's entirely possible that the same result may have occurred through a general election if the right parties had been galvanized in the same manner. > There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. I wonder which group of people overwhelmingly prefers such a system. Political apathy is rampant throughout the world of representative democracies, with a prevailing sentiment that people's views aren't being represented. Two-party politics results in elites being able to control the scope of options available to the electorate. > Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. We can only hope, but that won't solve the two-party problem (or any of the other problems in American democracy such as the rank corruption). > Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not. Is anyone arguing that? The whole point being made is that America is in no position to take the moral high-ground. The US financially (and usually militarily) backs 70% of the world's dictators.
    - XuMiao 7y ago
      It's always a small group of people apply forces on the rest. In communism, it's the party members. In capitalism, it's the board of directors. communism prioritizes fairness. capitalism prioritizes freedom. People who want fairness hate capitalism. People who want freedom hate communism. Too much fairness but too little freedom bankrupts communism: people die in a fair manner. Too much freedom but too little fairness crashes capitalism: people die from voluntarily killing each other. Stop feeling superior to anyone else, but start acting. Western society has a lot of fairness problems to solve. Let's start solving them.
codyb 7y ago
Is the US worst in terms of foreign policy? Seems like the peoples of the South China sea, Tibet, and Hong Kong might have different opinions on that matter. Also all the nations in Africa with newly built debt trap infrastructure. The US has done some truly shit things abroad, but we’ve also been the dominant superpower during a period of unprecedented stability, prosperity, and peace when you look at the numbers. Sure Iraq was a shit show, and I’m of the opinion that war crimes were committed during enhanced interrogations. But the entire history of the world before WWII is just one long history of war basically everywhere. Open market slavery. The US isn’t perfect, but the alternative filled with constant regional conflicts everywhere certainly seems like a worse alternative to me. Edit: not sure why I waded into this conversation. Curious though, I’m seeing the 4x prison population for USA per capita number bandied about. On one level, I see that number slowly improving as we stop arresting people for smoking marijuana. And on the other, I’m really curious, and have no idea, are China’s Uighur population which are in “reeducation camps” counted in China’s numbers? Aren’t they harvesting people’s organs in those places? Rough. America’s always had a lot of outright and systemic racism but my feeling is that it slowly but surely keeps getting better. I have a feeling Generation Z is going to be pretty open about things whether it’s sexuality, skin color, gender, or whatever. Ultra PC and call out/cancel culture is another thing with it’s own warts, but yay for a society where an entire generation can push forward this new ideology of being whatever the hell you want to be. The boomers are dying out, the evangelicals and religious are losing people every day. I have faith we’ll be fighting for human rights and climate change accords soon. I really hope at least. So to conclude, my opinion, we’re no paragon of morals and values, but our history shows a slow but steady stride towards an ideal, one of freedom, and individuality, and opportunity, for all. We take steps back, we make awful mistakes, but over the long term, we always move forward. That’s the America I believe in. I hope I’m not wrong.
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  This is very U.S. centrist, I'd grant you the relative peace and stability if you're in the West. But 70 years isn't that long and you could find empires with long stretches of time where relatively nothing was fundamentally changing for the dominant population of some of the long-lived empires. The U.S. in its modern form and position isn't around even as long as the golden age of democratic Athens was around. Sure, there were historically always some tensions at the border regions of these empires, but there are pressures of such nature felt in Europe now too, (the U.S. has the advantage of being physically very, very far from the regions in unleashes its worst policies on, so of course it's less felt there). Also, all empires saw themselves as in some way policing, keeping peace and bringing their enlightened values to what they saw as the lesser. If we see that kind of thinking now as wrong, then I really don't see how the U.S. is so much different from the empire model of old. As for China, I agree its regional foreign policy is not great, the problem is the U.S. doesn't just keep it regional. It treats the whole world as its backyard. If you're a non-U.S. citizen, the unipolar world is not so great. I don't want China to say replace the U.S. as the dominant superpower, I want it to offer a counter-balance. I want the EU to be its own great power, offering counter balance to both, bringing both democratic values & a more humane treatment of its own citizens than the U.S. has, especially the less fortunate.

ByzantineO6 7y ago

you are Howard Zinn, and I want my prize!

habnds 7y ago

a free press and free elections make it not so much of a wash

AsyncAwait 7y ago
Expect the 'free' press is more akin to 'corporate press' & the elections results in the person getting the most votes not being elected President.
- habnds 7y ago
  I don't understand how these things somehow result in there being no difference between the US and China. Of course it's an imperfect system. Try handing out flyers about civil rights in Washington DC and then try it in Beijing. Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not.
  - cyphar 7y ago
    > Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. The obvious counter-example to this argument is Switzerland, which has been a direct democracy (or as close as you can get) for more than 120 years. Brexit wasn't caused by the system by which the vote was conducted. It was a genuine public sentiment that had been cultivated through decades of media propaganda and scapegoating by politicians. Yes, the fact it was a single-issue vote made the issue more prominent, but it's entirely possible that the same result may have occurred through a general election if the right parties had been galvanized in the same manner. > There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. I wonder which group of people overwhelmingly prefers such a system. Political apathy is rampant throughout the world of representative democracies, with a prevailing sentiment that people's views aren't being represented. Two-party politics results in elites being able to control the scope of options available to the electorate. > Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. We can only hope, but that won't solve the two-party problem (or any of the other problems in American democracy such as the rank corruption). > Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not. Is anyone arguing that? The whole point being made is that America is in no position to take the moral high-ground. The US financially (and usually militarily) backs 70% of the world's dictators.
  - XuMiao 7y ago
    It's always a small group of people apply forces on the rest. In communism, it's the party members. In capitalism, it's the board of directors. communism prioritizes fairness. capitalism prioritizes freedom. People who want fairness hate capitalism. People who want freedom hate communism. Too much fairness but too little freedom bankrupts communism: people die in a fair manner. Too much freedom but too little fairness crashes capitalism: people die from voluntarily killing each other. Stop feeling superior to anyone else, but start acting. Western society has a lot of fairness problems to solve. Let's start solving them.

codyb 7y ago

Is the US worst in terms of foreign policy? Seems like the peoples of the South China sea, Tibet, and Hong Kong might have different opinions on that matter. Also all the nations in Africa with newly built debt trap infrastructure. The US has done some truly shit things abroad, but we’ve also been the dominant superpower during a period of unprecedented stability, prosperity, and peace when you look at the numbers. Sure Iraq was a shit show, and I’m of the opinion that war crimes were committed during enhanced interrogations. But the entire history of the world before WWII is just one long history of war basically everywhere. Open market slavery. The US isn’t perfect, but the alternative filled with constant regional conflicts everywhere certainly seems like a worse alternative to me. Edit: not sure why I waded into this conversation. Curious though, I’m seeing the 4x prison population for USA per capita number bandied about. On one level, I see that number slowly improving as we stop arresting people for smoking marijuana. And on the other, I’m really curious, and have no idea, are China’s Uighur population which are in “reeducation camps” counted in China’s numbers? Aren’t they harvesting people’s organs in those places? Rough. America’s always had a lot of outright and systemic racism but my feeling is that it slowly but surely keeps getting better. I have a feeling Generation Z is going to be pretty open about things whether it’s sexuality, skin color, gender, or whatever. Ultra PC and call out/cancel culture is another thing with it’s own warts, but yay for a society where an entire generation can push forward this new ideology of being whatever the hell you want to be. The boomers are dying out, the evangelicals and religious are losing people every day. I have faith we’ll be fighting for human rights and climate change accords soon. I really hope at least. So to conclude, my opinion, we’re no paragon of morals and values, but our history shows a slow but steady stride towards an ideal, one of freedom, and individuality, and opportunity, for all. We take steps back, we make awful mistakes, but over the long term, we always move forward. That’s the America I believe in. I hope I’m not wrong.

AsyncAwait 7y ago
This is very U.S. centrist, I'd grant you the relative peace and stability if you're in the West. But 70 years isn't that long and you could find empires with long stretches of time where relatively nothing was fundamentally changing for the dominant population of some of the long-lived empires. The U.S. in its modern form and position isn't around even as long as the golden age of democratic Athens was around. Sure, there were historically always some tensions at the border regions of these empires, but there are pressures of such nature felt in Europe now too, (the U.S. has the advantage of being physically very, very far from the regions in unleashes its worst policies on, so of course it's less felt there). Also, all empires saw themselves as in some way policing, keeping peace and bringing their enlightened values to what they saw as the lesser. If we see that kind of thinking now as wrong, then I really don't see how the U.S. is so much different from the empire model of old. As for China, I agree its regional foreign policy is not great, the problem is the U.S. doesn't just keep it regional. It treats the whole world as its backyard. If you're a non-U.S. citizen, the unipolar world is not so great. I don't want China to say replace the U.S. as the dominant superpower, I want it to offer a counter-balance. I want the EU to be its own great power, offering counter balance to both, bringing both democratic values & a more humane treatment of its own citizens than the U.S. has, especially the less fortunate.