5 ms·

The ban applies to people living in China or Russia, not on chinese or russians. Any american or european living in either country would similarly be affected

The ban applies to people living in China or Russia, not on chinese or russians. Any american or european living in either country would similarly be affected by the ban. Untwist your knickers please.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
It very quickly escalates to discrimination against Chinese people in the US, as evidenced by the highly upvoted comment I originally responded to. I'm sorry if I get my knickers twisted about people proposing an entire race of people pose a national security threat, but this sort of xenophobia has rarely gone well in history.
- GenericsMotors 7y ago
  Chinese and Russians living outside of China and Russia will not be affected by the ban. You keep calling it xenophobia even after you've been proven wrong when you claimed this is targetted at green-card holders. You are absolutely disengenuous and have no intention at good-faith discussion.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    Read the GP comment, which says this is a good first step and then muses about expanding the ban to Green Card holders: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438366 I then suggest you edit out your erroneous personal attacks.
    - GenericsMotors 7y ago
      You seem very focused on China only...why is that? GP's "musing" equally affects Russians. Or are Russians not something your ideology would allow you to defend? Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage. Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian!), and everything to do with their country's government.
      - pinkfoot 7y ago
        What about second order effects? If I ran state security for a poor African dictatorship, I would find all successful expatriates in the .US/.EU/.AU and sell their details to other nasty outfits and offer to "apply my heel" to their families for a fee. And the optics would be on my side.
      - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
        I would fully defend Russians against this sort of xenophobia as well. They just don't seem to be the enemy du jour. Complaining about Russia is so 2018. America has a short attention span, and has moved on to the next great evil. > Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage. Okay, so now you can edit our your attacks above, because you see that the post I was responding to did discuss targeting Chinese and Russian people living in the US. > Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian!), and everything to do with their country's government. Regardless of the rationale, they're still being targeted on the basis of their nationality. The general impression is being created that all Chinese and Russian people in the US are potential national security threats, whose employment should be restricted. I don't see any functional or moral difference between that and xenophobia. It reminds me of the generalized suspicion of Muslims after 9/11. It's not a pretty thing, and it's sad to see it gaining currency.
        GenericsMotors 7y ago
        Unfortunately I can no longer edit my reply - please take my apology for misunderstanding your argument. Back on topic of green cards: whether you want to bury your head in the sand or face the reality that foreign dictatorships will use their own citizens to infiltrate their rivals is up to you. If you want to take the high road you can, and likely be excluded from government contract work. Don't get me wrong on one thing, the west is in a precarious situation of openly doing the same thing in certain cases - eg: Australia's draconian backdoor law. I will not hire or recommend hiring an autralian dev working in Australia - and you can call me a racist or xenophobe if you want, it will not change the reason for the decision. Fortunately for an australian immigrant abroad they are not going to have their family black-bagged for failure to submit to their government. I don't have this confidence for Russia, and especially not China.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

It very quickly escalates to discrimination against Chinese people in the US, as evidenced by the highly upvoted comment I originally responded to. I'm sorry if I get my knickers twisted about people proposing an entire race of people pose a national security threat, but this sort of xenophobia has rarely gone well in history.

GenericsMotors 7y ago
Chinese and Russians living outside of China and Russia will not be affected by the ban. You keep calling it xenophobia even after you've been proven wrong when you claimed this is targetted at green-card holders. You are absolutely disengenuous and have no intention at good-faith discussion.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  Read the GP comment, which says this is a good first step and then muses about expanding the ban to Green Card holders: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438366 I then suggest you edit out your erroneous personal attacks.
  - GenericsMotors 7y ago
    You seem very focused on China only...why is that? GP's "musing" equally affects Russians. Or are Russians not something your ideology would allow you to defend? Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage. Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian!), and everything to do with their country's government.
    - pinkfoot 7y ago
      What about second order effects? If I ran state security for a poor African dictatorship, I would find all successful expatriates in the .US/.EU/.AU and sell their details to other nasty outfits and offer to "apply my heel" to their families for a fee. And the optics would be on my side.
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      I would fully defend Russians against this sort of xenophobia as well. They just don't seem to be the enemy du jour. Complaining about Russia is so 2018. America has a short attention span, and has moved on to the next great evil. > Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage. Okay, so now you can edit our your attacks above, because you see that the post I was responding to did discuss targeting Chinese and Russian people living in the US. > Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian!), and everything to do with their country's government. Regardless of the rationale, they're still being targeted on the basis of their nationality. The general impression is being created that all Chinese and Russian people in the US are potential national security threats, whose employment should be restricted. I don't see any functional or moral difference between that and xenophobia. It reminds me of the generalized suspicion of Muslims after 9/11. It's not a pretty thing, and it's sad to see it gaining currency.
      - GenericsMotors 7y ago
        Unfortunately I can no longer edit my reply - please take my apology for misunderstanding your argument. Back on topic of green cards: whether you want to bury your head in the sand or face the reality that foreign dictatorships will use their own citizens to infiltrate their rivals is up to you. If you want to take the high road you can, and likely be excluded from government contract work. Don't get me wrong on one thing, the west is in a precarious situation of openly doing the same thing in certain cases - eg: Australia's draconian backdoor law. I will not hire or recommend hiring an autralian dev working in Australia - and you can call me a racist or xenophobe if you want, it will not change the reason for the decision. Fortunately for an australian immigrant abroad they are not going to have their family black-bagged for failure to submit to their government. I don't have this confidence for Russia, and especially not China.