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Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign polic

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

XuMiao 7y ago
USA has been a dictator around the world for a century. So many unethical wars involved. So many radical movements are cultivated by US propaganda. Now these fear fed propaganda are dividing itself and destroying the future. People who are blind to all these are the ones full of fake Democracy ideology.
cfv 7y ago
> I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government ... yeah, about that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation#Graduates_of_the_School_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...
yourbandsucks 7y ago
This is a thread where Americans are debating whether we should "flatten" a billion people via nuclear bombardment because they don't govern themselves the way we think they should. I'd pick a different spot to call us morally superior. Like, any other thread.
- munmaek 7y ago
  Are we? I’ve seen a reasonable discussion so far on policy and ethics. There will always be trolls. I never said anyone was completely superior. But in this specific case.. we are, because American citizens (and their families) don’t disappear for criticizing their government or for refusing to spy on other countries.
  - yourbandsucks 7y ago
    That's awfully cherrypicked if you're going to limit things to specifically political prisoners. We have LOTS more prisoners, btw, 4x as many per capita, with a nasty racial bias. And that's before you get into all the dead Arabs and Latinos who dared to have a government that wasn't freedomy enough for us. What's your exchange rate between those? Do you value the tiny number of people speaking out against the state's legitimacy that much, when were talking millions of other innocent lives? Becoming suddenly sure that we MUST kneecap our rival for totally sound moral reasons is soooo American. I feel like I'm living in groundhog day and nobody else can tell.
    - munmaek 7y ago
      So because the US government isn’t perfect, US based companies and US citizens are not allowed to espouse opinions on policy? I can’t change what my government has done, and I can’t really change what it’s doing besides voting, but I can have my own opinion.
      - yourbandsucks 7y ago
        You can have an opinion, of course. A mob opinion that our chief rival must be kneecapped in the name of freedom and justice is super suspect, is what I'm saying. Americans want American hegemony, and that's fine, but please don't preach about values while you're doing it.
        munmaek 7y ago
        > must be kneecapped in the name of freedom and justice I think we can talk without hyperbole, no? >Americans want American hegemony, Sorry if that's what you think.
        yourbandsucks 7y ago
        There's a pretty significant online mob who really want to split HK off of China. I'd call 'kneecap' reasonably apt. As far as hegemony.. I'm sorry you don't believe that :) Why is specifically China the Big Bad Guy if it's not about hegemony? Why aren't we focused on cleaning our own house first if it's about justice and freedom? Like, if this isn't about power, we could at least stop actively supporting the horrible regimes that are useful to us? That seems like a pretty easy thing to do. Why hasn't it happened?
AsyncAwait 7y ago
> Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. Right, if you're a U.S citizen maybe not, otherwise they'll do that and worse, read on "enhanced integrations", kidnappings etc. So the U.S is better domestically, (still employs prisoners as effectively slave labor, treats minorities harshly, lets people die due to lack of healthcare...), but it is worse in terms of foreign policy, so in the end it seems to be a bit of a wash, doesn't it?
- ByzantineO6 7y ago
  you are Howard Zinn, and I want my prize!
- habnds 7y ago
  a free press and free elections make it not so much of a wash
  - AsyncAwait 7y ago
    Expect the 'free' press is more akin to 'corporate press' & the elections results in the person getting the most votes not being elected President.
    - habnds 7y ago
      I don't understand how these things somehow result in there being no difference between the US and China. Of course it's an imperfect system. Try handing out flyers about civil rights in Washington DC and then try it in Beijing. Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not.
      - cyphar 7y ago
        > Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. The obvious counter-example to this argument is Switzerland, which has been a direct democracy (or as close as you can get) for more than 120 years. Brexit wasn't caused by the system by which the vote was conducted. It was a genuine public sentiment that had been cultivated through decades of media propaganda and scapegoating by politicians. Yes, the fact it was a single-issue vote made the issue more prominent, but it's entirely possible that the same result may have occurred through a general election if the right parties had been galvanized in the same manner. > There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. I wonder which group of people overwhelmingly prefers such a system. Political apathy is rampant throughout the world of representative democracies, with a prevailing sentiment that people's views aren't being represented. Two-party politics results in elites being able to control the scope of options available to the electorate. > Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. We can only hope, but that won't solve the two-party problem (or any of the other problems in American democracy such as the rank corruption). > Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not. Is anyone arguing that? The whole point being made is that America is in no position to take the moral high-ground. The US financially (and usually militarily) backs 70% of the world's dictators.
iiertiosas 7y ago
How do you reconcile this with drone strikes that take out entire weddings just to get one individual? Or the infamous “signature strikes” that target individuals based on metadata? [1] 1. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-to-survive-americas-kill-list-699334/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-...
- SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
  Just because my kitchen's on fire doesn't mean I shouldn't report the murder occurring at my neighbor's house. I can be concerned with both, and should be. So while I'm trying to put out my kitchen fire, I should also probably be on the line with emergency response. I am not my government, nor is my government going to disappear me for loudly criticizing it and supporting politicians that would work to stop our moral failings.
pm90 7y ago
> the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, Don't be so sure of that. If you hold valuable information on a foreign state, you will be accused and quickly convicted under various national security laws if you don't co-operate. You severely under-estimate the power of a state, especially one as powerful as the US. If they want something from you, they will get it. Have you broken a minor law? Maybe you've been stellar, but some member of your family hasn't. The likelihood of being in an entire family with spotless records is very very low.
- munmaek 7y ago
  Even in that example, the US government would not make my family disappear. Please cite any reputable sources that you have to the contrary, because anything else is a spurious claim. I'm not going to argue over various conspiracy theories. Corruption and unfair things exist in every single country, but we do have the right to freedom of press, speech, assembly, and due process.
  - pm90 7y ago
    To be clear, I'm not arguing for any such conspiracy theories. All I'm saying is that the State can go after you and your family if you refuse to co-operate with it on important enough subjects. I do agree that the barrier for that may be lower in more authoritarian states, as they're not restricted by the system of laws in the US. Maybe that's the best we can get.

XuMiao 7y ago

USA has been a dictator around the world for a century. So many unethical wars involved. So many radical movements are cultivated by US propaganda. Now these fear fed propaganda are dividing itself and destroying the future. People who are blind to all these are the ones full of fake Democracy ideology.

cfv 7y ago

> I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government ... yeah, about that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_for_Security_Cooperation#Graduates_of_the_School_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f...

yourbandsucks 7y ago

This is a thread where Americans are debating whether we should "flatten" a billion people via nuclear bombardment because they don't govern themselves the way we think they should. I'd pick a different spot to call us morally superior. Like, any other thread.

munmaek 7y ago
Are we? I’ve seen a reasonable discussion so far on policy and ethics. There will always be trolls. I never said anyone was completely superior. But in this specific case.. we are, because American citizens (and their families) don’t disappear for criticizing their government or for refusing to spy on other countries.
- yourbandsucks 7y ago
  That's awfully cherrypicked if you're going to limit things to specifically political prisoners. We have LOTS more prisoners, btw, 4x as many per capita, with a nasty racial bias. And that's before you get into all the dead Arabs and Latinos who dared to have a government that wasn't freedomy enough for us. What's your exchange rate between those? Do you value the tiny number of people speaking out against the state's legitimacy that much, when were talking millions of other innocent lives? Becoming suddenly sure that we MUST kneecap our rival for totally sound moral reasons is soooo American. I feel like I'm living in groundhog day and nobody else can tell.
  - munmaek 7y ago
    So because the US government isn’t perfect, US based companies and US citizens are not allowed to espouse opinions on policy? I can’t change what my government has done, and I can’t really change what it’s doing besides voting, but I can have my own opinion.
    - yourbandsucks 7y ago
      You can have an opinion, of course. A mob opinion that our chief rival must be kneecapped in the name of freedom and justice is super suspect, is what I'm saying. Americans want American hegemony, and that's fine, but please don't preach about values while you're doing it.
      - munmaek 7y ago
        > must be kneecapped in the name of freedom and justice I think we can talk without hyperbole, no? >Americans want American hegemony, Sorry if that's what you think.
        yourbandsucks 7y ago
        There's a pretty significant online mob who really want to split HK off of China. I'd call 'kneecap' reasonably apt. As far as hegemony.. I'm sorry you don't believe that :) Why is specifically China the Big Bad Guy if it's not about hegemony? Why aren't we focused on cleaning our own house first if it's about justice and freedom? Like, if this isn't about power, we could at least stop actively supporting the horrible regimes that are useful to us? That seems like a pretty easy thing to do. Why hasn't it happened?

AsyncAwait 7y ago

> Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. Right, if you're a U.S citizen maybe not, otherwise they'll do that and worse, read on "enhanced integrations", kidnappings etc. So the U.S is better domestically, (still employs prisoners as effectively slave labor, treats minorities harshly, lets people die due to lack of healthcare...), but it is worse in terms of foreign policy, so in the end it seems to be a bit of a wash, doesn't it?

ByzantineO6 7y ago
you are Howard Zinn, and I want my prize!
habnds 7y ago
a free press and free elections make it not so much of a wash
- AsyncAwait 7y ago
  Expect the 'free' press is more akin to 'corporate press' & the elections results in the person getting the most votes not being elected President.
  - habnds 7y ago
    I don't understand how these things somehow result in there being no difference between the US and China. Of course it's an imperfect system. Try handing out flyers about civil rights in Washington DC and then try it in Beijing. Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not.
    - cyphar 7y ago
      > Of course it's easy to criticize the electoral college but look at the results of direct democracy recently, Brexit, the initial rejection of the FARC peace agreement in Columbia. The obvious counter-example to this argument is Switzerland, which has been a direct democracy (or as close as you can get) for more than 120 years. Brexit wasn't caused by the system by which the vote was conducted. It was a genuine public sentiment that had been cultivated through decades of media propaganda and scapegoating by politicians. Yes, the fact it was a single-issue vote made the issue more prominent, but it's entirely possible that the same result may have occurred through a general election if the right parties had been galvanized in the same manner. > There's a reason representative democracy is prefered to direct, it's just difficult to get a balance. I wonder which group of people overwhelmingly prefers such a system. Political apathy is rampant throughout the world of representative democracies, with a prevailing sentiment that people's views aren't being represented. Two-party politics results in elites being able to control the scope of options available to the electorate. > Odds are that the Electoral College will be gone in my lifetime. We can only hope, but that won't solve the two-party problem (or any of the other problems in American democracy such as the rank corruption). > Is the authoritarian Chinese system better? Of course not. Is anyone arguing that? The whole point being made is that America is in no position to take the moral high-ground. The US financially (and usually militarily) backs 70% of the world's dictators.

iiertiosas 7y ago

How do you reconcile this with drone strikes that take out entire weddings just to get one individual? Or the infamous “signature strikes” that target individuals based on metadata? [1] 1. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-to-survive-americas-kill-list-699334/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/how-...

SimbaOnSteroids 7y ago
Just because my kitchen's on fire doesn't mean I shouldn't report the murder occurring at my neighbor's house. I can be concerned with both, and should be. So while I'm trying to put out my kitchen fire, I should also probably be on the line with emergency response. I am not my government, nor is my government going to disappear me for loudly criticizing it and supporting politicians that would work to stop our moral failings.

pm90 7y ago

> the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, Don't be so sure of that. If you hold valuable information on a foreign state, you will be accused and quickly convicted under various national security laws if you don't co-operate. You severely under-estimate the power of a state, especially one as powerful as the US. If they want something from you, they will get it. Have you broken a minor law? Maybe you've been stellar, but some member of your family hasn't. The likelihood of being in an entire family with spotless records is very very low.

munmaek 7y ago
Even in that example, the US government would not make my family disappear. Please cite any reputable sources that you have to the contrary, because anything else is a spurious claim. I'm not going to argue over various conspiracy theories. Corruption and unfair things exist in every single country, but we do have the right to freedom of press, speech, assembly, and due process.
- pm90 7y ago
  To be clear, I'm not arguing for any such conspiracy theories. All I'm saying is that the State can go after you and your family if you refuse to co-operate with it on important enough subjects. I do agree that the barrier for that may be lower in more authoritarian states, as they're not restricted by the system of laws in the US. Maybe that's the best we can get.