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Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China makes draconian laws like this: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... Is it really a surprise that companies that care about their customer privacy would be hesitant in dealing with China? Is it inconceivable that data breaches and unauthorized access of data/systems could happen through Chinese employees? These are some of the things you have to think about. Maybe the Chinese government should look at the year (2019) and realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west". If China is going to disrespect our important values, than what you are seeing in this Gitlab discussion is bound to take place for companies that are sensitive about protecting their customers.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.
- computerex 7y ago
  The U.S is a much bigger economy than China and that's one of the reasons why you see penetration from U.S companies in China. Just because there are U.S companies in China doesn't mean that what I said about the Chinese government making it hell to do business there is false. Your argument is not logically sound. But as to your point, some of the things that make it difficult for western countries to do business there is the great firewall, draconian privacy laws https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... and subsidies (both monetary and policy) from the Chinese government that make it almost impossible for foreign companies to compete against domestic companies.
  - abduhl 7y ago
    China’s economy is “much” smaller than the US by what metric? China and the USA are the top two economies by any measure (GDP, exports, imports, etc.) with both countries switching places as 1 or 2 depending on the metric.
    - computerex 7y ago
      By the GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
      - abduhl 7y ago
        For a counter example of GDP using Purchasing Power Parity where China is "much" bigger under this metric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
        computerex 7y ago
        The difference between China/US in nominal GDP is much much greater than the difference in PPP. Secondly China is a known currency manipulator so I am inclined to pay less heed to the PPP. Finally the GDP per capita of China is absolutely dismal. Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country. It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty.
        DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
        PPP GDP is much less affected by currency manipulation than nominal GDP, because the latter relies directly on the exchange rate. > China is a known currency manipulator The accusation has always been that they're suppressing the value of their currency (in order to boost exports), which would actually mean that their nominal GDP understates rather than overstates the size of the economy. Whether these accusations are true is a different question. > It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty. It's certainly not a Third World country anymore (technically, this is a misuse of the term "Third World," but I'll go with it). GDP/capita in Beijing, Shanghai and Tianjin (China's 3 largest cities) is about $20k, which puts them roughly on the same level as the Czech Republic, Greece and Estonia, and just slightly below Portugal and Taiwan. Lots of Chinese cities are richer than these three (Shenzhen is at $32k/capita, similar to South Korea). On average, Chinese GDP/capita is about $10k, similar to Mexico and Turkey. That's pretty much average for the world. There are certainly huge differences between different regions of China (Beijing is way more developed than a random farming village in the West of China), and there's enormous inequality within every part of China, so there are a lot of poor people. However, there are also a few hundred million people living what you would recognize as middle-class lives. That's why you'll see so many Chinese tourists these days at any random tourist destination around the world - they have the money to afford those sorts of luxuries now. > Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country. Most Chinese people would agree with you that China is not yet "prosperous." Even the Chinese government officially agrees with you on that. They are doing vastly better than they used to, though, and the country as a whole is no longer poor. It's about average for the world now, but with a high growth rate and some highly developed regions in the East. Whether they make the final push into developed-country status remains to be seen.
- drak0n1c 7y ago
  I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8. If you are ever in China, go into a grocery store and look at the aisles. The main reason why American products are priced at 200%-300% the competition is because of tariffs. Tariffs designed to make ordinary middle class American products only affordable by rich elites. It's a very effective cap on market share.
  - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
    I have no idea why Old Spice is expensive in Shanghai, but 200-300% tariffs are not the norm in China. The mean tariff is under 4%, according to the World Bank. I have noticed, however, that many people in China people hold foreign brands in high regard, and are willing to pay a premium for them. 1. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?locations=CN https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?lo...
  - akfanta 7y ago
    > I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8. This particular case is likely because the usage of deodorant is not a thing in China. The majority of East Asia doesn't have the body odor issue. It's a gene thing.
La1n 7y ago
>realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west" I think that Snowden showed us that this is not actually true. Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.
- bassman9000 7y ago
  Oh no, Snowden. I guess then all other world powers are equally as shitty as the US. Search "false equivalence". Use Baidu. Or Yandex.
- computerex 7y ago
  There was a huge backlash against the government after Snowden. And Snowden was an American who leaked classified government information for the good of the country. Our perception of Snowden is generally very positive. If what you are saying is right, this wouldn't be the case. You don't see many Chinese whistleblowers leaking the most classified information to the vast public, for example. The patriot act was passed after 9/11 where the people were hurt and scared. There is backlast against the Patriot act too. Besides PRISM was a highly classified program because the people wouldn't be okay with that type of surveillance here in the U.S where the expectation of privacy isn't even a thing in China. They are two totally different worlds.
  - Quarrelsome 7y ago
    yes but where does Snowden now live? You can't deny the hypocrisy here. While our citizens might support him they don't to the extent that they can pressure governments enough to allow him to return home.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - computerex 7y ago
      Pressuring the government into action is hard and requires personal sacrifice. It would be amazing if we had the same vigor and care about our personal liberties as for instance the people of Hong Kong.
odiroot 7y ago
> Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Or since the Boxer Rebellion. Or since before the Opium Wars. And probably even much earlier.
whoevercares 7y ago
Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are freaking different now with certified news from the US regarding trade war and the fact Trump can’t win the trade war. Normal people this time really become nationalist
- elefanten 7y ago
  Is there debate about this on the Chinese net? I'm curious because I don't know, but I imagine having a debate where people can genuinely criticize China would be difficult to conduct in the face of censorship and legal risk. I ask because my experience across the Western net has been seeing lots of debate. This thread is a good example. I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims. So I genuinely wonder; does vibrant and open debate take place somewhere? How/where could I see what such debates look like?
  - akfanta 7y ago
    > I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims. You will never see it anywhere on the internet, because from the very beginning your decision has been made. Anything you read will be morphed according to your belief. Anyone pro China on this site is immediately either labeled as brainwashed retards or paid shill. That's why there are no discussions, it's just your echo chamber.
  - whoevercares 7y ago
    Yes it took place somewhere else. Even in tech a good portion of Chineses don’t know HN and other people just use it as “tech news hub” like medium/TechCrunch (tbh that’s my common usage). There would be a language barrier because most of the discussion would be in written Chinese which is quite ambiguous for discussion. The best way might be to interview a few Chinese people but keep in mind the redlines: 1) integrity/definition of China (e.g no sane Chinese would think HongKong is not part of China and some would terminate the conversation directly if you raise some other point. Tibet/Taiwan is more controversial maybe you can discuss). 2)Those “well known” crimes/human rights offense the government committed. Native Chinese doesn’t really trust western media that much and it might be such a meme to them already so it’s likely turning into whataboutsim (which is perfectly ok in Chinese culture, if you are not better by another magnitude don’t comment on me)
rqs 7y ago
> China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there Here we go. "CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad". This kind of logic is not very healthy, it just like saying "Google(Or insert any company here) is bad, let's punish their employees", it will hurt those employees (way) more than it hurt Google. Put the story into context, if Chinese engineers cannot find a job oversea, they will probably go back to China and contribute to a Chinese company that operate under CCP's rule. Will that be a good thing for you eventually? I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home with their valuable knowledge.
- celeritascelery 7y ago
  > I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home OP even mentioned that moves restricting hiring in China from US will help their Chinese based company. > CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad This is a very unfair summarization of the parent comment. They never implied that conclusion. Yes, the CCP is bad; And they control China and the Chinese people. But that does not say anything about the people themselves other then they are subject to the communist rules. It is a resistance to the CCP privacy practices that brings this change.
hungryhobo 7y ago
Complains about double standards in western media,points to double standards in Chinese media. Whataboutism?

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.

computerex 7y ago
The U.S is a much bigger economy than China and that's one of the reasons why you see penetration from U.S companies in China. Just because there are U.S companies in China doesn't mean that what I said about the Chinese government making it hell to do business there is false. Your argument is not logically sound. But as to your point, some of the things that make it difficult for western countries to do business there is the great firewall, draconian privacy laws https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... and subsidies (both monetary and policy) from the Chinese government that make it almost impossible for foreign companies to compete against domestic companies.
- abduhl 7y ago
  China’s economy is “much” smaller than the US by what metric? China and the USA are the top two economies by any measure (GDP, exports, imports, etc.) with both countries switching places as 1 or 2 depending on the metric.
  - computerex 7y ago
    By the GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
    - abduhl 7y ago
      For a counter example of GDP using Purchasing Power Parity where China is "much" bigger under this metric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
      - computerex 7y ago
        The difference between China/US in nominal GDP is much much greater than the difference in PPP. Secondly China is a known currency manipulator so I am inclined to pay less heed to the PPP. Finally the GDP per capita of China is absolutely dismal. Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country. It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty.
        DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
        PPP GDP is much less affected by currency manipulation than nominal GDP, because the latter relies directly on the exchange rate. > China is a known currency manipulator The accusation has always been that they're suppressing the value of their currency (in order to boost exports), which would actually mean that their nominal GDP understates rather than overstates the size of the economy. Whether these accusations are true is a different question. > It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty. It's certainly not a Third World country anymore (technically, this is a misuse of the term "Third World," but I'll go with it). GDP/capita in Beijing, Shanghai and Tianjin (China's 3 largest cities) is about $20k, which puts them roughly on the same level as the Czech Republic, Greece and Estonia, and just slightly below Portugal and Taiwan. Lots of Chinese cities are richer than these three (Shenzhen is at $32k/capita, similar to South Korea). On average, Chinese GDP/capita is about $10k, similar to Mexico and Turkey. That's pretty much average for the world. There are certainly huge differences between different regions of China (Beijing is way more developed than a random farming village in the West of China), and there's enormous inequality within every part of China, so there are a lot of poor people. However, there are also a few hundred million people living what you would recognize as middle-class lives. That's why you'll see so many Chinese tourists these days at any random tourist destination around the world - they have the money to afford those sorts of luxuries now. > Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country. Most Chinese people would agree with you that China is not yet "prosperous." Even the Chinese government officially agrees with you on that. They are doing vastly better than they used to, though, and the country as a whole is no longer poor. It's about average for the world now, but with a high growth rate and some highly developed regions in the East. Whether they make the final push into developed-country status remains to be seen.
drak0n1c 7y ago
I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8. If you are ever in China, go into a grocery store and look at the aisles. The main reason why American products are priced at 200%-300% the competition is because of tariffs. Tariffs designed to make ordinary middle class American products only affordable by rich elites. It's a very effective cap on market share.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  I have no idea why Old Spice is expensive in Shanghai, but 200-300% tariffs are not the norm in China. The mean tariff is under 4%, according to the World Bank. I have noticed, however, that many people in China people hold foreign brands in high regard, and are willing to pay a premium for them. 1. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?locations=CN https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?lo...
- akfanta 7y ago
  > I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8. This particular case is likely because the usage of deodorant is not a thing in China. The majority of East Asia doesn't have the body odor issue. It's a gene thing.

La1n 7y ago

>realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west" I think that Snowden showed us that this is not actually true. Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.

bassman9000 7y ago
Oh no, Snowden. I guess then all other world powers are equally as shitty as the US. Search "false equivalence". Use Baidu. Or Yandex.
computerex 7y ago
There was a huge backlash against the government after Snowden. And Snowden was an American who leaked classified government information for the good of the country. Our perception of Snowden is generally very positive. If what you are saying is right, this wouldn't be the case. You don't see many Chinese whistleblowers leaking the most classified information to the vast public, for example. The patriot act was passed after 9/11 where the people were hurt and scared. There is backlast against the Patriot act too. Besides PRISM was a highly classified program because the people wouldn't be okay with that type of surveillance here in the U.S where the expectation of privacy isn't even a thing in China. They are two totally different worlds.
- Quarrelsome 7y ago
  yes but where does Snowden now live? You can't deny the hypocrisy here. While our citizens might support him they don't to the extent that they can pressure governments enough to allow him to return home.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - computerex 7y ago
    Pressuring the government into action is hard and requires personal sacrifice. It would be amazing if we had the same vigor and care about our personal liberties as for instance the people of Hong Kong.

odiroot 7y ago

> Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Or since the Boxer Rebellion. Or since before the Opium Wars. And probably even much earlier.

whoevercares 7y ago

Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are freaking different now with certified news from the US regarding trade war and the fact Trump can’t win the trade war. Normal people this time really become nationalist

elefanten 7y ago
Is there debate about this on the Chinese net? I'm curious because I don't know, but I imagine having a debate where people can genuinely criticize China would be difficult to conduct in the face of censorship and legal risk. I ask because my experience across the Western net has been seeing lots of debate. This thread is a good example. I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims. So I genuinely wonder; does vibrant and open debate take place somewhere? How/where could I see what such debates look like?
- akfanta 7y ago
  > I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims. You will never see it anywhere on the internet, because from the very beginning your decision has been made. Anything you read will be morphed according to your belief. Anyone pro China on this site is immediately either labeled as brainwashed retards or paid shill. That's why there are no discussions, it's just your echo chamber.
- whoevercares 7y ago
  Yes it took place somewhere else. Even in tech a good portion of Chineses don’t know HN and other people just use it as “tech news hub” like medium/TechCrunch (tbh that’s my common usage). There would be a language barrier because most of the discussion would be in written Chinese which is quite ambiguous for discussion. The best way might be to interview a few Chinese people but keep in mind the redlines: 1) integrity/definition of China (e.g no sane Chinese would think HongKong is not part of China and some would terminate the conversation directly if you raise some other point. Tibet/Taiwan is more controversial maybe you can discuss). 2)Those “well known” crimes/human rights offense the government committed. Native Chinese doesn’t really trust western media that much and it might be such a meme to them already so it’s likely turning into whataboutsim (which is perfectly ok in Chinese culture, if you are not better by another magnitude don’t comment on me)

rqs 7y ago

> China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there Here we go. "CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad". This kind of logic is not very healthy, it just like saying "Google(Or insert any company here) is bad, let's punish their employees", it will hurt those employees (way) more than it hurt Google. Put the story into context, if Chinese engineers cannot find a job oversea, they will probably go back to China and contribute to a Chinese company that operate under CCP's rule. Will that be a good thing for you eventually? I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home with their valuable knowledge.

celeritascelery 7y ago
> I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home OP even mentioned that moves restricting hiring in China from US will help their Chinese based company. > CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad This is a very unfair summarization of the parent comment. They never implied that conclusion. Yes, the CCP is bad; And they control China and the Chinese people. But that does not say anything about the people themselves other then they are subject to the communist rules. It is a resistance to the CCP privacy practices that brings this change.

hungryhobo 7y ago

Complains about double standards in western media,points to double standards in Chinese media. Whataboutism?