11 ms·

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "th

I am Chinese living in China. Nationalism is on the rise lately in China, not just for domestic reasons, but also as an reaction to nationalistic moves from "the West" like this one. It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. As a founder of a tech company based in China, I benefit from US companies blocking Chinese (and Russian) engineers; still I am saddened by this. I hope they could come up with more intelligent policies to protect their OPSEC.

Craighead 7y ago
How are those actual death camps going? How's that credit system going? China is a techno authoritarian dystopia, regardless of what the compass tells you.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
d1ffuz0r 7y ago
Those people are completely brainwashed https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#note_239511333 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#not...
- ichik 7y ago
  Care to elaborate, comrade major?
mb_72 7y ago
Curious as the way I see it it's very often China who is the 'initiator', eg internment of Muslims, stealing of territory in South China sea, debt-trap diplomacy, and so forth. Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition? The Chinese government is, IMO, massively over sensitive to any outside commentary or criticism, eg: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-31/china-warns-australia-not-to-strain-relations-over-human-rights/11656922 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-31/china-warns-australia...
- Quarrelsome 7y ago
  why do you think Trump likes to talk about China? He's more likely to talk about camps in China than he is about the homeless in Los Angeles. One is a problem completely out of his control, another is one he could easily mitigate. You wonder why that is?
  - varjag 7y ago
    Trump never brings up human rights issues in China (or elsewhere), so your point is moot.
    - Quarrelsome 7y ago
      My point is that people like to talk smack about stuff elsewhere they can't change to detract people from injustices they CAN impact. Its the same with China, what better way to avoid awkward conversations about Taiwan, Hong Kong or the Uighurs than talk about how "unfair" the West is being? As a Westerner, while its important to understand about the nasty side of China is somewhat pointless to endlessly focus on it because its not a problem we have the capacity to solve. There are issues that we can obtain Chinese buy-in on like climate-change (we all live on this planet) so we should focus on things like this where we can work together so we can forge better ties instead of focusing on what we don't like about each other. Lets not do evil-empire all over again.
  - mb_72 7y ago
    I'm not American, and don't follow what Trump says or doesn't say that closely. Myself, I do criticise my own government, protest on the streets, and also donate money to causes that work in opposition, mostly, to the current government. I've also made business decisions that involve much less interaction with mainland Chinese businesses and customers precisely because I disagree with the mainland Chinese governments way of doing things. Maybe it's cost me some money, but I sleep better at night.
- EastToWest 7y ago
  How do you expect a Chinese to respond to this kind of "Have you stopped beating your wife" questions? Whether some of the view points are valid in the first place (at least the second or third one) is deeply contested to Chinese. If you're just parroting Western media view points without showing at least some understanding of Chinese view points, you will likely not get any genuine answers.
jka 7y ago
Agreed; it's unfortunate to see companies considering acting this way. In this case it seems like GitLab are doing this for a single customer, so I'd bet it's caused by a desire to meet sales quotas and/or financial goals, rather than fundamental company strategy or policy. Using that lens, this is a short-term financially-motivated attempt to change company hiring/access policy, which in turn provides justification for the anti-Western sentiment you mention. In my opinion this is a restriction that should be the customer's responsibility to enact, if they choose to - which means that GitLab should pause and build access controls which allow the customer to configure (and ideally audit) who at GitLab has access. What is excellent and commendable is that GitLab is able to have much of this discussion in the open; because at many other organizations, this would all have happened behind closed doors.
computerex 7y ago
Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China makes draconian laws like this: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... Is it really a surprise that companies that care about their customer privacy would be hesitant in dealing with China? Is it inconceivable that data breaches and unauthorized access of data/systems could happen through Chinese employees? These are some of the things you have to think about. Maybe the Chinese government should look at the year (2019) and realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west". If China is going to disrespect our important values, than what you are seeing in this Gitlab discussion is bound to take place for companies that are sensitive about protecting their customers.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  > They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.
  - computerex 7y ago
    The U.S is a much bigger economy than China and that's one of the reasons why you see penetration from U.S companies in China. Just because there are U.S companies in China doesn't mean that what I said about the Chinese government making it hell to do business there is false. Your argument is not logically sound. But as to your point, some of the things that make it difficult for western countries to do business there is the great firewall, draconian privacy laws https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... and subsidies (both monetary and policy) from the Chinese government that make it almost impossible for foreign companies to compete against domestic companies.
_iyig 7y ago
>It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. Do you believe this move is a double standard? If America and the E.U. mirrored Chinese rules and practices for corporate governance, foreign investment, and political involvement in private enterprise, how would that look?
bart_spoon 7y ago
Do you have any suggestions as to what Western companies can do to prevent intellectual property theft and the Chinese government trying to pressure them into censoring non-Chinese citizens? Because short of some effective alternatives, the Chinese government isn't really giving the West much of a choice here.
lonelappde 7y ago
The article/policy isn't about blocking Chinese/Russian people, it's blocking people in China and Russia, or equivalenly blocking gitlab corporate from spreading into China/Russia.
proverbialbunny 7y ago
I've noticed nationalism rising in China lately too. It's easy to pay attention to difference between people and culture, as noticing difference is what we instinctively do, but it is also beneficial to notice our similarities too. We're all people. Besides minor cultural differences, we all respond in similar ways to the situations we are given throughout life. >As a founder of a tech company based in China, I benefit from US companies blocking Chinese (and Russian) engineers; still I am saddened by this. I hope they could come up with more intelligent policies to protect their OPSEC. btw, is it legal to read HN in China?
- resouer 7y ago
  here we go, another white man been brainwashed by western medias.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't post unsubstantive comments and/or flamebait to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
president 7y ago
You say that nationalism in China is a reaction to nationalism in the US when it is actually the other way around. After many decades of realizing China has engaged in unfair trade practices, IP theft, and predatory behavior despite maintaining innocence, US finally has to react. If someone keeps punching you and spitting in your face, how do you think they'll react eventually? I don't expect Chinese natives to understand the full story because they aren't exposed to all the wrongdoings of their government and even if they are, they think it's justified because they selfishly believe in supremacy of their own race/country. Even your comment suggests that you have been led to believe US is the "bully". I have heard all the arguments from the Chinese about 100 years of humiliation, Opium wars, and how US did X, Y, and Z "bad things" without ever pausing and stepping out of their own shoes to look at their actions in an unbiased way or learning the truth of the facts. I guess you can't have a meaningful argument when your only sources are your government textbooks and fire-walled internet. Think about that.
eznoonze 7y ago
As a founder of a tech company based in China, you benefit from China blocking US (and the western world's) companies; You should be saddened by this. Can you please write a letter to Chairman Xi telling him he is wrong?

Craighead 7y ago

How are those actual death camps going? How's that credit system going? China is a techno authoritarian dystopia, regardless of what the compass tells you.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

d1ffuz0r 7y ago

Those people are completely brainwashed https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#note_239511333 https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#not...

ichik 7y ago
Care to elaborate, comrade major?

mb_72 7y ago

Curious as the way I see it it's very often China who is the 'initiator', eg internment of Muslims, stealing of territory in South China sea, debt-trap diplomacy, and so forth. Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition? The Chinese government is, IMO, massively over sensitive to any outside commentary or criticism, eg: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-31/china-warns-australia-not-to-strain-relations-over-human-rights/11656922 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-31/china-warns-australia...

Quarrelsome 7y ago
why do you think Trump likes to talk about China? He's more likely to talk about camps in China than he is about the homeless in Los Angeles. One is a problem completely out of his control, another is one he could easily mitigate. You wonder why that is?
- varjag 7y ago
  Trump never brings up human rights issues in China (or elsewhere), so your point is moot.
  - Quarrelsome 7y ago
    My point is that people like to talk smack about stuff elsewhere they can't change to detract people from injustices they CAN impact. Its the same with China, what better way to avoid awkward conversations about Taiwan, Hong Kong or the Uighurs than talk about how "unfair" the West is being? As a Westerner, while its important to understand about the nasty side of China is somewhat pointless to endlessly focus on it because its not a problem we have the capacity to solve. There are issues that we can obtain Chinese buy-in on like climate-change (we all live on this planet) so we should focus on things like this where we can work together so we can forge better ties instead of focusing on what we don't like about each other. Lets not do evil-empire all over again.
- mb_72 7y ago
  I'm not American, and don't follow what Trump says or doesn't say that closely. Myself, I do criticise my own government, protest on the streets, and also donate money to causes that work in opposition, mostly, to the current government. I've also made business decisions that involve much less interaction with mainland Chinese businesses and customers precisely because I disagree with the mainland Chinese governments way of doing things. Maybe it's cost me some money, but I sleep better at night.
EastToWest 7y ago
How do you expect a Chinese to respond to this kind of "Have you stopped beating your wife" questions? Whether some of the view points are valid in the first place (at least the second or third one) is deeply contested to Chinese. If you're just parroting Western media view points without showing at least some understanding of Chinese view points, you will likely not get any genuine answers.

jka 7y ago

Agreed; it's unfortunate to see companies considering acting this way. In this case it seems like GitLab are doing this for a single customer, so I'd bet it's caused by a desire to meet sales quotas and/or financial goals, rather than fundamental company strategy or policy. Using that lens, this is a short-term financially-motivated attempt to change company hiring/access policy, which in turn provides justification for the anti-Western sentiment you mention. In my opinion this is a restriction that should be the customer's responsibility to enact, if they choose to - which means that GitLab should pause and build access controls which allow the customer to configure (and ideally audit) who at GitLab has access. What is excellent and commendable is that GitLab is able to have much of this discussion in the open; because at many other organizations, this would all have happened behind closed doors.

computerex 7y ago

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China makes draconian laws like this: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... Is it really a surprise that companies that care about their customer privacy would be hesitant in dealing with China? Is it inconceivable that data breaches and unauthorized access of data/systems could happen through Chinese employees? These are some of the things you have to think about. Maybe the Chinese government should look at the year (2019) and realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west". If China is going to disrespect our important values, than what you are seeing in this Gitlab discussion is bound to take place for companies that are sensitive about protecting their customers.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.
- computerex 7y ago
  The U.S is a much bigger economy than China and that's one of the reasons why you see penetration from U.S companies in China. Just because there are U.S companies in China doesn't mean that what I said about the Chinese government making it hell to do business there is false. Your argument is not logically sound. But as to your point, some of the things that make it difficult for western countries to do business there is the great firewall, draconian privacy laws https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurity-program-no-place-to-hide.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit... and subsidies (both monetary and policy) from the Chinese government that make it almost impossible for foreign companies to compete against domestic companies.

_iyig 7y ago

>It's a recurring theme, not just in governmental propaganda, but also in daily conversations, that "the West" would talk about fairness and justice then commit blatant discrimination and double standards. Do you believe this move is a double standard? If America and the E.U. mirrored Chinese rules and practices for corporate governance, foreign investment, and political involvement in private enterprise, how would that look?

bart_spoon 7y ago

Do you have any suggestions as to what Western companies can do to prevent intellectual property theft and the Chinese government trying to pressure them into censoring non-Chinese citizens? Because short of some effective alternatives, the Chinese government isn't really giving the West much of a choice here.

lonelappde 7y ago

The article/policy isn't about blocking Chinese/Russian people, it's blocking people in China and Russia, or equivalenly blocking gitlab corporate from spreading into China/Russia.

proverbialbunny 7y ago

I've noticed nationalism rising in China lately too. It's easy to pay attention to difference between people and culture, as noticing difference is what we instinctively do, but it is also beneficial to notice our similarities too. We're all people. Besides minor cultural differences, we all respond in similar ways to the situations we are given throughout life. >As a founder of a tech company based in China, I benefit from US companies blocking Chinese (and Russian) engineers; still I am saddened by this. I hope they could come up with more intelligent policies to protect their OPSEC. btw, is it legal to read HN in China?

resouer 7y ago
here we go, another white man been brainwashed by western medias.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments and/or flamebait to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

president 7y ago

You say that nationalism in China is a reaction to nationalism in the US when it is actually the other way around. After many decades of realizing China has engaged in unfair trade practices, IP theft, and predatory behavior despite maintaining innocence, US finally has to react. If someone keeps punching you and spitting in your face, how do you think they'll react eventually? I don't expect Chinese natives to understand the full story because they aren't exposed to all the wrongdoings of their government and even if they are, they think it's justified because they selfishly believe in supremacy of their own race/country. Even your comment suggests that you have been led to believe US is the "bully". I have heard all the arguments from the Chinese about 100 years of humiliation, Opium wars, and how US did X, Y, and Z "bad things" without ever pausing and stepping out of their own shoes to look at their actions in an unbiased way or learning the truth of the facts. I guess you can't have a meaningful argument when your only sources are your government textbooks and fire-walled internet. Think about that.

eznoonze 7y ago

As a founder of a tech company based in China, you benefit from China blocking US (and the western world's) companies; You should be saddened by this. Can you please write a letter to Chairman Xi telling him he is wrong?