3 ms·

Are natural languages homoiconic? (If you get my drift.) Does that question even make sense?

jerf 16y ago
Hmm, I don't know about in general, but in English we have the double-quote when being used to refer to the statement itself. For example, I can talk about the use of "for example" by quoting it like that. So (written) English can embed English in a reasonably standard format. Very like the Lisp quote operator, no? The name is not coincidence. However, we have no useful English operators to take the quoted words and change them into something else meaningfully. Though a non-English set can be argued to exist: http://creativeservices.iu.edu/resources/guide/marks.shtml http://creativeservices.iu.edu/resources/guide/marks.shtml If those were English themselves that would arguably complete the loop, but I would consider that stretching the point; these were explicitly invented to avoid the use of English and also translate to any other character-based language.
- pangram 16y ago
  I can't think of a natural language equivalent for the comma operator, other than (maybe) incredibly awkward and confusing uses of parenthetical statements
jfm3 16y ago
Even early stabs at x-bar theory indicate that natural languages are highly homoiconic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-bar_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-bar_theory
- sedachv 16y ago
  Can you please explain more?
  - jfm3 16y ago
    Homoiconicity means program and data have identical representation. But after you Lisp for a while the boundary blurs entirely. X-bar theory says that in all natural languages, Noun Phrases, Verb Phrases, and depending on who you read other types of phrases all have the same form; a single Head (which may be composite) and a Tail with zero or more elements. Never mind that they've just discovered S-expressions. The point is that in the natural language program: multiply the radius squared and pi Both the data-like parts and the program-like parts share the same structure.
sedachv 16y ago
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo But seriously, take a look at Quines and Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach
- sedachv 16y ago
  I was re-reading Doug Hoyte's Let Over Lambda today, and came across this quine: (let ((let '`(let ((let ',let)) ,let))) `(let ((let ',let)) ,let)) Originally from: http://www.scribd.com/doc/47702904/Bawden-Quasi-Quotation-in-Lisp http://www.scribd.com/doc/47702904/Bawden-Quasi-Quotation-in...

jerf 16y ago

Hmm, I don't know about in general, but in English we have the double-quote when being used to refer to the statement itself. For example, I can talk about the use of "for example" by quoting it like that. So (written) English can embed English in a reasonably standard format. Very like the Lisp quote operator, no? The name is not coincidence. However, we have no useful English operators to take the quoted words and change them into something else meaningfully. Though a non-English set can be argued to exist: http://creativeservices.iu.edu/resources/guide/marks.shtml http://creativeservices.iu.edu/resources/guide/marks.shtml If those were English themselves that would arguably complete the loop, but I would consider that stretching the point; these were explicitly invented to avoid the use of English and also translate to any other character-based language.

pangram 16y ago
I can't think of a natural language equivalent for the comma operator, other than (maybe) incredibly awkward and confusing uses of parenthetical statements

jfm3 16y ago

Even early stabs at x-bar theory indicate that natural languages are highly homoiconic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-bar_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-bar_theory

sedachv 16y ago
Can you please explain more?
- jfm3 16y ago
  Homoiconicity means program and data have identical representation. But after you Lisp for a while the boundary blurs entirely. X-bar theory says that in all natural languages, Noun Phrases, Verb Phrases, and depending on who you read other types of phrases all have the same form; a single Head (which may be composite) and a Tail with zero or more elements. Never mind that they've just discovered S-expressions. The point is that in the natural language program: multiply the radius squared and pi Both the data-like parts and the program-like parts share the same structure.

sedachv 16y ago

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo But seriously, take a look at Quines and Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach

sedachv 16y ago
I was re-reading Doug Hoyte's Let Over Lambda today, and came across this quine: (let ((let '`(let ((let ',let)) ,let))) `(let ((let ',let)) ,let)) Originally from: http://www.scribd.com/doc/47702904/Bawden-Quasi-Quotation-in-Lisp http://www.scribd.com/doc/47702904/Bawden-Quasi-Quotation-in...