5 ms·

Placebo is one hell of a drug.

semi-extrinsic 7y ago
.. and that's the reason why I think there should be a well-functioning and regulated market for these kinds of things. Magnets, homeopathic remedies, chiropractors, etc. As long as there is regulation preventing manufacturers and practicioners from claiming they can cure cancer/etc., and the remedies do not have any harmful side effects, why on earth should we leave a treatment as powerful as placebo off the table? GP here has significantly reduced his painkiller intake and reduced chronic pain by putting some magnets on his feet. That is without doubt a strong net positive outcome. Why do we mock it?
- thombat 7y ago
  I don't think it's being directly mocked: the implicit association with this electrolysis result is being questioned.
- Elrac 7y ago
  Pretty much every "alternative" medical procedure or product for the gullible has one serious side effect: the potential for abandoning medicine that actually and empirically has an effect superior to placebos. Prominent example, to make it a bit more real: Steve Jobs had a cancer with an excellent prognosis on real medicine but chose to handle it with... fruit juice, I think. Steve Jobs is now dead. Oncologists write bitter and angry testimonials about patients they weren't able to save because those patients turned away from effective medicine. It's even more infuriating when ignorant parents make these decisions for their children.
  - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
    Yes, this is exactly why I believe that strong regulation is necessary, with regards to what people selling the "medicine" are allowed to say. Your Steve Jobs example highlights that the problem wouldn't be fixed by removing alternative medicine. People can always claim that perfectly ordinary objects have alternative medicine properties. I believe if there was a well-regulated alternative medicine industry where people would trust practicioners like they do today, but where those practicioners were prohibited from saying they could cure cancer etc, we would end up in a much better situation.
arcticbull 7y ago
It’s effectiveness also correlates positively with our belief in modern medicine; it’s becoming more effective over time. Truly fascinating.
- phs318u 7y ago
  Indeed. But we’ve got to ask - is the increasing effectiveness of the placebo effect correlated with a dumbing down of the population (eg the increasing prevalence of anti-scientific views and the mistrust of authorities)? If so, one could foresee a time when the underlying anti-scientific views are cemented by some kind of widespread “scandal”, at which point one might expect the placebo affect to start diminishing in efficacy (if it is related to a belief in modern medicine). So, long-term it may be a bad sign. EDITED: spelling and grammar fixes.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Its not. We mistakenly call placebo effect mostly what is regression to the mean. When it is regression to the mean it has nothing to do with placebo - it would occur without anything.
Fjolsvith 7y ago
Its amazing. Magnets even help alleviate the pain of downvotes.
- thombat 7y ago
  Be inspired to run a small trial of magnets vs placebo by having your S.O. randomly swap them for similarly heavy non-magnetic lumps and keep a journal of the results. Of course puts your pain relief at risk (regardless of its basis), but the sweet taste of upvotes for your home-brew sciencing will make it all worthwhile.
  - _Microft 7y ago
    S.O. better shouldn't know which is which to avoid influence on them, i.e. double-blind the experiment.
    - Fjolsvith 7y ago
      Hmm. So if neither I nor S.O. knew which bracelets had magnets, would that be a double-placebo effect?
- edejong 7y ago
  And of grammar nazi’s telling you it’s “it’s” not “its”.
  - thombat 7y ago
    "nazis" (briefly hugs self with silent glee at besting a grammar nazi in the field, then quietly settles to await the inevitable reply pointing out my own solecism)
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      [deleted]
nihonde 7y ago
As is hubris

.. and that's the reason why I think there should be a well-functioning and regulated market for these kinds of things. Magnets, homeopathic remedies, chiropractors, etc. As long as there is regulation preventing manufacturers and practicioners from claiming they can cure cancer/etc., and the remedies do not have any harmful side effects, why on earth should we leave a treatment as powerful as placebo off the table? GP here has significantly reduced his painkiller intake and reduced chronic pain by putting some magnets on his feet. That is without doubt a strong net positive outcome. Why do we mock it?

thombat 7y ago
I don't think it's being directly mocked: the implicit association with this electrolysis result is being questioned.
Elrac 7y ago
Pretty much every "alternative" medical procedure or product for the gullible has one serious side effect: the potential for abandoning medicine that actually and empirically has an effect superior to placebos. Prominent example, to make it a bit more real: Steve Jobs had a cancer with an excellent prognosis on real medicine but chose to handle it with... fruit juice, I think. Steve Jobs is now dead. Oncologists write bitter and angry testimonials about patients they weren't able to save because those patients turned away from effective medicine. It's even more infuriating when ignorant parents make these decisions for their children.
- semi-extrinsic 7y ago
  Yes, this is exactly why I believe that strong regulation is necessary, with regards to what people selling the "medicine" are allowed to say. Your Steve Jobs example highlights that the problem wouldn't be fixed by removing alternative medicine. People can always claim that perfectly ordinary objects have alternative medicine properties. I believe if there was a well-regulated alternative medicine industry where people would trust practicioners like they do today, but where those practicioners were prohibited from saying they could cure cancer etc, we would end up in a much better situation.

arcticbull 7y ago

It’s effectiveness also correlates positively with our belief in modern medicine; it’s becoming more effective over time. Truly fascinating.

phs318u 7y ago
Indeed. But we’ve got to ask - is the increasing effectiveness of the placebo effect correlated with a dumbing down of the population (eg the increasing prevalence of anti-scientific views and the mistrust of authorities)? If so, one could foresee a time when the underlying anti-scientific views are cemented by some kind of widespread “scandal”, at which point one might expect the placebo affect to start diminishing in efficacy (if it is related to a belief in modern medicine). So, long-term it may be a bad sign. EDITED: spelling and grammar fixes.
ekianjo 7y ago
Its not. We mistakenly call placebo effect mostly what is regression to the mean. When it is regression to the mean it has nothing to do with placebo - it would occur without anything.

Fjolsvith 7y ago

Its amazing. Magnets even help alleviate the pain of downvotes.

thombat 7y ago
Be inspired to run a small trial of magnets vs placebo by having your S.O. randomly swap them for similarly heavy non-magnetic lumps and keep a journal of the results. Of course puts your pain relief at risk (regardless of its basis), but the sweet taste of upvotes for your home-brew sciencing will make it all worthwhile.
- _Microft 7y ago
  S.O. better shouldn't know which is which to avoid influence on them, i.e. double-blind the experiment.
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    Hmm. So if neither I nor S.O. knew which bracelets had magnets, would that be a double-placebo effect?
edejong 7y ago
And of grammar nazi’s telling you it’s “it’s” not “its”.
- thombat 7y ago
  "nazis" (briefly hugs self with silent glee at besting a grammar nazi in the field, then quietly settles to await the inevitable reply pointing out my own solecism)
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    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

nihonde 7y ago

As is hubris