6 ms·

not kidding here, but could this shed new light onthose homeopaths/acupuncturists who put magnets on their wrists, etc. to increase blood flow?

phnofive 7y ago
No, if for no other reason than the mechanism by which spin alignment increases the efficiency of electrolyzing water can’t be compared to the mechanism by which magnetism of certain components of blood would allow a magnet to improve blood flow (the latter mechanism does not exist, to be clear).
neftaly 7y ago
The results suggest that magnetism catalyzes electrolysis by temporarily aligning oxygen electron orbits. There is negligible effect otherwise; if electrolysis happened in ones' wrists, you'd merely experience extreme agony for a while, before exploding. There is also clear, well-documented evidence that homeopathic magnets have no effect beyond a placebo.
- eru 7y ago
  And as much as we like to make fun of those woo peddlers, they are fulfilling a very important role in the progress of science. See eg https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-out-of-control/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-o... > That is, in let’s say a drug testing experiment, you give some people the drug and they recover. That doesn’t tell you much until you give some other people a placebo drug you know doesn’t work – but which they themselves believe in – and see how many of them recover. That number tells you how many people will recover whether the drug works or not. Unless people on your real drug do significantly better than people on the placebo drug, you haven’t found anything. > On the meta-level, you’re studying some phenomenon and you get some positive findings. That doesn’t tell you much until you take some other researchers who are studying a phenomenon you know doesn’t exist – but which they themselves believe in – and see how many of them get positive findings. That number tells you how many studies will discover positive results whether the phenomenon is real or not. Unless studies of the real phenomenon do significantly better than studies of the placebo phenomenon, you haven’t found anything. > Trying to set up placebo science would be a logistical nightmare. You’d have to find a phenomenon that definitely doesn’t exist, somehow convince a whole community of scientists across the world that it does, and fund them to study it for a couple of decades without them figuring it out.
  - neftaly 7y ago
    Absolutely. Placebos also hold an important place in medicine, and the reduction of suffering.
    - evancox100 7y ago
      There's also some evidence that just the care and attention associated with delivering the placebo can have real benefits.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    You've missed the reveal. The next paragraph: > Luckily we have a natural experiment in terms of parapsychology – the study of psychic phenomena – which most reasonable people believe don’t exist, but which a community of practicing scientists believes in and publishes papers on all the time. And now for the cliffhanger: so how does real science fare against its control group? (The answer is in the article.)
    - eru 7y ago
      Well, I already implied the reveal in the introduction I wrote above the quote. I didn't want to repeat the punchline. But we both seem to agree that people should read the article.
taneq 7y ago
I actually talked to one of their sales people a while ago out of idle curiosity, and within five minutes felt like my head was going to explode from "that's not how any of this works". I went into it with as open a mind as I could muster, and was told the following: - The magnets are arranged so that there's a positive magnetic field in the middle surrounded by a ring of negative magnetic field - Blood cells are clumped and this arrangement of magnetic fields pulls apart the clumps, making the blood cells more efficient - The magnetic field also ionizes your blood, giving the cells a positive charge so they can hold more oxygen (!) - They don't claim that it's a medical device because pharmacies won't let them (so as to get more money from doctors prescribing medicine) - The sales girl's pet cat is way more friendly since starting to use one of their magnet things I checked their website which yielded further such gems as: - Magnotherapy has been used for centuries by humans and animals to aid healing - It is reported that Cleopatra wore a small magnet on her forehead to preserve her beauty and youthfulness! - Our magnets use a strong, multi-directional force of magnetism called ‘Central Reverse Polarity®’ also referred to as ‘CRP®’, to mimic the expensive professional equipment used by physiotherapists. Molecules that exit a CRP® field are more efficient than those produced by standard magnets. - The use of a Central Reverse Polarity magnetic field therefore has a three-fold effect on the body’s energy levels (talking at a molecular level); -- It activates the release of energy -- It boosts the volume of stored energy -- It acts as a catalyst by providing energy to increase the rate of chemical reactions. tl;dr no.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  My head hurts just from reading that. Yikes.
- brownbat 7y ago
  Reminded me of this episode of Patient Zero, which covers some fringe treatments for Lyme disease: https://www.patientzeropodcast.com/podcast-episodes/episode-5 https://www.patientzeropodcast.com/podcast-episodes/episode-... Spoiler: Don't try to fight bacterial infections with lasers.
  - msds 7y ago
senectus1 7y ago
sort of, it'll help to shed light on the BS claims and expand the common knowledge levels to help debunk such dubious claims.

phnofive 7y ago

No, if for no other reason than the mechanism by which spin alignment increases the efficiency of electrolyzing water can’t be compared to the mechanism by which magnetism of certain components of blood would allow a magnet to improve blood flow (the latter mechanism does not exist, to be clear).

neftaly 7y ago

The results suggest that magnetism catalyzes electrolysis by temporarily aligning oxygen electron orbits. There is negligible effect otherwise; if electrolysis happened in ones' wrists, you'd merely experience extreme agony for a while, before exploding. There is also clear, well-documented evidence that homeopathic magnets have no effect beyond a placebo.

eru 7y ago
And as much as we like to make fun of those woo peddlers, they are fulfilling a very important role in the progress of science. See eg https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-out-of-control/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-o... > That is, in let’s say a drug testing experiment, you give some people the drug and they recover. That doesn’t tell you much until you give some other people a placebo drug you know doesn’t work – but which they themselves believe in – and see how many of them recover. That number tells you how many people will recover whether the drug works or not. Unless people on your real drug do significantly better than people on the placebo drug, you haven’t found anything. > On the meta-level, you’re studying some phenomenon and you get some positive findings. That doesn’t tell you much until you take some other researchers who are studying a phenomenon you know doesn’t exist – but which they themselves believe in – and see how many of them get positive findings. That number tells you how many studies will discover positive results whether the phenomenon is real or not. Unless studies of the real phenomenon do significantly better than studies of the placebo phenomenon, you haven’t found anything. > Trying to set up placebo science would be a logistical nightmare. You’d have to find a phenomenon that definitely doesn’t exist, somehow convince a whole community of scientists across the world that it does, and fund them to study it for a couple of decades without them figuring it out.
- neftaly 7y ago
  Absolutely. Placebos also hold an important place in medicine, and the reduction of suffering.
  - evancox100 7y ago
    There's also some evidence that just the care and attention associated with delivering the placebo can have real benefits.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  You've missed the reveal. The next paragraph: > Luckily we have a natural experiment in terms of parapsychology – the study of psychic phenomena – which most reasonable people believe don’t exist, but which a community of practicing scientists believes in and publishes papers on all the time. And now for the cliffhanger: so how does real science fare against its control group? (The answer is in the article.)
  - eru 7y ago
    Well, I already implied the reveal in the introduction I wrote above the quote. I didn't want to repeat the punchline. But we both seem to agree that people should read the article.

taneq 7y ago

I actually talked to one of their sales people a while ago out of idle curiosity, and within five minutes felt like my head was going to explode from "that's not how any of this works". I went into it with as open a mind as I could muster, and was told the following: - The magnets are arranged so that there's a positive magnetic field in the middle surrounded by a ring of negative magnetic field - Blood cells are clumped and this arrangement of magnetic fields pulls apart the clumps, making the blood cells more efficient - The magnetic field also ionizes your blood, giving the cells a positive charge so they can hold more oxygen (!) - They don't claim that it's a medical device because pharmacies won't let them (so as to get more money from doctors prescribing medicine) - The sales girl's pet cat is way more friendly since starting to use one of their magnet things I checked their website which yielded further such gems as: - Magnotherapy has been used for centuries by humans and animals to aid healing - It is reported that Cleopatra wore a small magnet on her forehead to preserve her beauty and youthfulness! - Our magnets use a strong, multi-directional force of magnetism called ‘Central Reverse Polarity®’ also referred to as ‘CRP®’, to mimic the expensive professional equipment used by physiotherapists. Molecules that exit a CRP® field are more efficient than those produced by standard magnets. - The use of a Central Reverse Polarity magnetic field therefore has a three-fold effect on the body’s energy levels (talking at a molecular level); -- It activates the release of energy -- It boosts the volume of stored energy -- It acts as a catalyst by providing energy to increase the rate of chemical reactions. tl;dr no.

HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
My head hurts just from reading that. Yikes.
brownbat 7y ago
Reminded me of this episode of Patient Zero, which covers some fringe treatments for Lyme disease: https://www.patientzeropodcast.com/podcast-episodes/episode-5 https://www.patientzeropodcast.com/podcast-episodes/episode-... Spoiler: Don't try to fight bacterial infections with lasers.
- msds 7y ago

senectus1 7y ago

sort of, it'll help to shed light on the BS claims and expand the common knowledge levels to help debunk such dubious claims.