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> It’s the same reason why most big corps oppose a national healthcare system in the US: it keeps people locked in to their current positions Ok, then why isn'

by umvi 7y ago

> It’s the same reason why most big corps oppose a national healthcare system in the US: it keeps people locked in to their current positions Ok, then why isn't EU a Mecca of enterprise and innovation? Seems like EU is largely technologically stagnant compared to the US despite tons of safety nets at every level.

claudeganon 7y ago
Technology is not the only economic domain and entrepreneurship is higher in some parts of Europe than the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/think-were-the-most-entrepreneurial-country-in-the-world-not-so-fast/263102/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/think-w...
TrackerFF 7y ago
There are many reasons, IMO. 1. The US has almost 330 million people; Europe has 740 million - but we're spread over so many different countries / policies / cultures etc. Hell, eastern Europe was locked out up until 30 years ago, and didn't stat to see industrial prosperity until 20 years ago. 2. USA had a massive advantage after WW2, while Europe was still in shambles. The rebuilding of Europe wasn't really completed until the 50s and 60s, at a time when the US experienced its golden age of industrial development. 3. More rich people and more investors compared to Europe, from earlier on, coupled with excellent schools that could produce and feed talent into the industry. Sure, we here in Europe have had excellent schools, but nowhere near the financial backings. In many countries, financial backing of tech and companies have been a gov / state affair, which in turn can be extremely limited compared to private investors. etc.
- mbrodersen 7y ago
  Google, Facebook etc. are ad serving companies. That's how they make their money. Let's compare that with other companies (a lot of them European) that are busy saving the world with renewable energy technologies etc. No comparison.
- livesinhel 7y ago
  1.2 Europe's 740 million people speak in at least 24 languages. This makes it much more difficult to scale internationally. That's why there's so many doppelgänger companies in different EU countries — it's more likely that somebody will create a regional clone of your successful business than you'll be able to scale.
- Vrondi 7y ago
  Yeah, it's just amazing how people completely forget that whole "bombed literally to bits in WWII" thing. Most Americans have no clue how long rationing lasted in the UK after WWII, and yet you guys managed to implement the NHS. Meanwhile, at the same time, the fabulously prospering USA has never managed to do anything to take care of this basic need of citizens, yet keeps calling itself "superior".
  - complexmango 7y ago
    The United States was once a 3rd world country that lost 10% of its population in the American Civil War. Within 5 decades of that, it produced 50% of the worlds manufacturing output. Needless to say, Europe was it its peak at the time, and has only declined since. Excuses are easy to come by - root causes are more useful to examine.
    - hollerith 7y ago
      The US was the second country to industrialize (Britain was first; France third) and that industrialization had been going very strong for many decades before the start of the American Civil War. Also life expectancy, infant mortality, adult height and similar measures were better in the American colonies than in the most advance Western European countries a century (and probably a century and a half) before the start of the Civil War. So I don't agree that it was a 3rd-world country at the start of the Civil War. (I have no opinion on grandparent; I am reacting only to your choice of the term "3rd-world country".)
- complexmango 7y ago
  There is a much simpler explanation. 1. It’s an order of magnitude easier to fire people in the US Vs the EU. That means American employers are more willing to take chances on people, ideas and growth. EU small business are family run for a reason. 2. It’s an order of magnitude easier to shut down a business in the US Vs the EU. So, again, an entrepreneur can take more chances in the US. The EU favors big businesses that are hand-in-glove with the government. The US does so to a much smaller extent - smaller players and individuals have a fighting chance. Most US mega businesses today were tiny not too long ago (e.g. almost all of tech).
jacobr 7y ago
Nordic countries have some of the strongest safety nets, but more innovation and tech companies than many other countries. I’m not sure there is a strong correlation at all to be honest.
nroets 7y ago
There are many barriers to fire people in the EU. Not just laws but also reputational risk to the managers doing the firing. In fact, the EU is over regulated as a rule and discourages risk taking. For example GDPR compliance cost. Also, the US is richer, so all startups want to conquer it as it's primary market. This is a positive feedback loop because talented people want to move to the US to make it big.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  That's not true, there are little barriers for firing people in Europe. In Austria/Germany the average tech gig is hire and fire. If some managers sees that your velocity in Jira is lower than the rest of the team for too long you'll be given your notice period and let go easy peasy, no sweat for the company. To quote on of my ex German boss after he fired a colleague of mine "software engineers are dime a dozen, recruiters flood me with their resumes every day, I can have someone from Poland in his place next week". This was a F500 company.
benibela 7y ago
It is not as if all of the EU has a national healthcare system The healthcare system in Germany is that the monthly insurance fee is like 15% of the wage of an employee and the employer has to pay half of the fee. If you switch from being employed directly to freelancing, you have no employer, and you have to pay at least twice as much for health care insurance. Twice as much, if you are lucky, since freelancer do not get a wage, the calculation is changed from 15% of the wage, to 15% of all income. In the worst case if you are a fire guy and have a lot of investments you can go from paying 50€/month for insurance to paying 700€/month with the same income, just because you work without an employer. (with public insurance, private insurances do their own fee calculations) Basically, as soon as you do something non-traditional, you lose the safety nets
journalctl 7y ago
What technology has the US actually pioneered in the last 20 years that doesn’t involve tracking people in new and terrifying ways just to serve them ads? I wouldn’t exactly call the US a Mecca of enterprise and innovation when most people don’t even have $400 saved for an emergency and the only thing “innovation” does is enrich a small handful of people at the expense of the masses. I’d rather be more like Europe.
mbrodersen 7y ago
What makes you think that EU isn't a Mecca of enterprise and innovation? It certainly is. Just not in the areas (Google etc.) that software developers care about.
PeterStuer 7y ago
Largely this has to do with the financial market. In the US capital is extremely cheap, the root cause of that can be traced back to the petrodollar system. US cherry-picking on- and intelligence inference in EU economic actors is way higher than the very meager reverse. If a EU company becomes successful or strategically interesting, it will typically be bought out by the US to be assimilated or disrupted. In software US befitted immensely from a more homogeneous home market at a time where internationalization was very far from trivial and higher costs of software development favored a more coarse business granularity (in the EU a 'large' company starts at 251 employees). All these taken together means the EU software market is disproportionately skewed towards bespoke B2B software development and embedded systems linked to more traditional industries such as automotive.
PaulRobinson 7y ago
I could argue that the EU is a Mecca of enterprise and innovation compared to the US (no software patents or their associated trolls), and I could point out differences in capital models and so on. Instead I'd just like to know: why do you think enterprise and innovation is more valuable than you or a member of your family needing an operation not bankrupting you? There are more important things than work. In the UK we value the NHS so much it featured in the Olympics opening ceremony - a segment the NBC refused to air - because it literally keeps us alive better than anything else. Does this mean it takes us longer to save up for our dream home because we're being taxed more heavily? Sure. But we don't care, because we realise that balance is more valuable. I'm genuinely curious: is this attitude seen as eccentric or naive outside of these shores?
- Vrondi 7y ago
  I think that it is largely the cultural brainwashing in the USA.
lucideer 7y ago
The narrative that the EU is devoid of enterprise and innovation relative to the US is a prevelant one, and I'm curious what it's based upon. If by "a Mecca of enterprise and innovation", you mean "has lots of unicorns", I think this is a poor proxy for that metric—in fact, the opposite may be true as large players can often work against smaller innovators entering markets.

by umvi 7y ago

claudeganon 7y ago

Technology is not the only economic domain and entrepreneurship is higher in some parts of Europe than the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/think-were-the-most-entrepreneurial-country-in-the-world-not-so-fast/263102/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/10/think-w...

TrackerFF 7y ago

There are many reasons, IMO. 1. The US has almost 330 million people; Europe has 740 million - but we're spread over so many different countries / policies / cultures etc. Hell, eastern Europe was locked out up until 30 years ago, and didn't stat to see industrial prosperity until 20 years ago. 2. USA had a massive advantage after WW2, while Europe was still in shambles. The rebuilding of Europe wasn't really completed until the 50s and 60s, at a time when the US experienced its golden age of industrial development. 3. More rich people and more investors compared to Europe, from earlier on, coupled with excellent schools that could produce and feed talent into the industry. Sure, we here in Europe have had excellent schools, but nowhere near the financial backings. In many countries, financial backing of tech and companies have been a gov / state affair, which in turn can be extremely limited compared to private investors. etc.

mbrodersen 7y ago
Google, Facebook etc. are ad serving companies. That's how they make their money. Let's compare that with other companies (a lot of them European) that are busy saving the world with renewable energy technologies etc. No comparison.
livesinhel 7y ago
1.2 Europe's 740 million people speak in at least 24 languages. This makes it much more difficult to scale internationally. That's why there's so many doppelgänger companies in different EU countries — it's more likely that somebody will create a regional clone of your successful business than you'll be able to scale.
Vrondi 7y ago
Yeah, it's just amazing how people completely forget that whole "bombed literally to bits in WWII" thing. Most Americans have no clue how long rationing lasted in the UK after WWII, and yet you guys managed to implement the NHS. Meanwhile, at the same time, the fabulously prospering USA has never managed to do anything to take care of this basic need of citizens, yet keeps calling itself "superior".
- complexmango 7y ago
  The United States was once a 3rd world country that lost 10% of its population in the American Civil War. Within 5 decades of that, it produced 50% of the worlds manufacturing output. Needless to say, Europe was it its peak at the time, and has only declined since. Excuses are easy to come by - root causes are more useful to examine.
  - hollerith 7y ago
    The US was the second country to industrialize (Britain was first; France third) and that industrialization had been going very strong for many decades before the start of the American Civil War. Also life expectancy, infant mortality, adult height and similar measures were better in the American colonies than in the most advance Western European countries a century (and probably a century and a half) before the start of the Civil War. So I don't agree that it was a 3rd-world country at the start of the Civil War. (I have no opinion on grandparent; I am reacting only to your choice of the term "3rd-world country".)
complexmango 7y ago
There is a much simpler explanation. 1. It’s an order of magnitude easier to fire people in the US Vs the EU. That means American employers are more willing to take chances on people, ideas and growth. EU small business are family run for a reason. 2. It’s an order of magnitude easier to shut down a business in the US Vs the EU. So, again, an entrepreneur can take more chances in the US. The EU favors big businesses that are hand-in-glove with the government. The US does so to a much smaller extent - smaller players and individuals have a fighting chance. Most US mega businesses today were tiny not too long ago (e.g. almost all of tech).

jacobr 7y ago

Nordic countries have some of the strongest safety nets, but more innovation and tech companies than many other countries. I’m not sure there is a strong correlation at all to be honest.

nroets 7y ago

There are many barriers to fire people in the EU. Not just laws but also reputational risk to the managers doing the firing. In fact, the EU is over regulated as a rule and discourages risk taking. For example GDPR compliance cost. Also, the US is richer, so all startups want to conquer it as it's primary market. This is a positive feedback loop because talented people want to move to the US to make it big.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
That's not true, there are little barriers for firing people in Europe. In Austria/Germany the average tech gig is hire and fire. If some managers sees that your velocity in Jira is lower than the rest of the team for too long you'll be given your notice period and let go easy peasy, no sweat for the company. To quote on of my ex German boss after he fired a colleague of mine "software engineers are dime a dozen, recruiters flood me with their resumes every day, I can have someone from Poland in his place next week". This was a F500 company.

benibela 7y ago

It is not as if all of the EU has a national healthcare system The healthcare system in Germany is that the monthly insurance fee is like 15% of the wage of an employee and the employer has to pay half of the fee. If you switch from being employed directly to freelancing, you have no employer, and you have to pay at least twice as much for health care insurance. Twice as much, if you are lucky, since freelancer do not get a wage, the calculation is changed from 15% of the wage, to 15% of all income. In the worst case if you are a fire guy and have a lot of investments you can go from paying 50€/month for insurance to paying 700€/month with the same income, just because you work without an employer. (with public insurance, private insurances do their own fee calculations) Basically, as soon as you do something non-traditional, you lose the safety nets

journalctl 7y ago

What technology has the US actually pioneered in the last 20 years that doesn’t involve tracking people in new and terrifying ways just to serve them ads? I wouldn’t exactly call the US a Mecca of enterprise and innovation when most people don’t even have $400 saved for an emergency and the only thing “innovation” does is enrich a small handful of people at the expense of the masses. I’d rather be more like Europe.

mbrodersen 7y ago

What makes you think that EU isn't a Mecca of enterprise and innovation? It certainly is. Just not in the areas (Google etc.) that software developers care about.

PeterStuer 7y ago

Largely this has to do with the financial market. In the US capital is extremely cheap, the root cause of that can be traced back to the petrodollar system. US cherry-picking on- and intelligence inference in EU economic actors is way higher than the very meager reverse. If a EU company becomes successful or strategically interesting, it will typically be bought out by the US to be assimilated or disrupted. In software US befitted immensely from a more homogeneous home market at a time where internationalization was very far from trivial and higher costs of software development favored a more coarse business granularity (in the EU a 'large' company starts at 251 employees). All these taken together means the EU software market is disproportionately skewed towards bespoke B2B software development and embedded systems linked to more traditional industries such as automotive.

PaulRobinson 7y ago

I could argue that the EU is a Mecca of enterprise and innovation compared to the US (no software patents or their associated trolls), and I could point out differences in capital models and so on. Instead I'd just like to know: why do you think enterprise and innovation is more valuable than you or a member of your family needing an operation not bankrupting you? There are more important things than work. In the UK we value the NHS so much it featured in the Olympics opening ceremony - a segment the NBC refused to air - because it literally keeps us alive better than anything else. Does this mean it takes us longer to save up for our dream home because we're being taxed more heavily? Sure. But we don't care, because we realise that balance is more valuable. I'm genuinely curious: is this attitude seen as eccentric or naive outside of these shores?

Vrondi 7y ago
I think that it is largely the cultural brainwashing in the USA.

lucideer 7y ago

The narrative that the EU is devoid of enterprise and innovation relative to the US is a prevelant one, and I'm curious what it's based upon. If by "a Mecca of enterprise and innovation", you mean "has lots of unicorns", I think this is a poor proxy for that metric—in fact, the opposite may be true as large players can often work against smaller innovators entering markets.