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I would too, and I believe the solution is to drastically change people's over-consumerists life-styles. I live a 'minimalist' life-style and feel finally happy

I would too, and I believe the solution is to drastically change people's over-consumerists life-styles. I live a 'minimalist' life-style and feel finally happy, my environmental footprint is probably lower than 5% of the average, the planet could easily host 10 billions people like this, but can't sustain 2 billions over-consumerists

jaynetics 7y ago
I like your approach, but have two small caveats: if you're living in a regular house or apartment in the Western world, with electricity, plumbing, heating etc., perhaps using public transportation several times a week, you might produce much less carbon than your fellow citizens, but probably not less than the average human. With current sources of energy, this is unsustainable for 4, let alone 10 billion people. The other thing is: consumerism must go, but it's no easy feat. So many people in 1st world countries work in jobs that make zero sense in a post-consumerist society. Advertising is a huge industry. Even many tech giants like the FAANGs would become largely superfluous. There will have to be a gentle transition, not a "drastic" one, or 2019 politics will end up looking like a fairytale in hindsight.
- esotericn 7y ago
  > if you're living in a regular house or apartment in the Western world, with electricity, plumbing, heating etc., perhaps using public transportation several times a week, you might produce much less carbon than your fellow citizens, but probably not less than the average human A large part of this is due to current practices surrounding energy and material goods production though, as you point out. For example, the UK has an intensity of approx 300g CO2 emitted per kWh on the national grid. We also have diesel trains. A lot of the material goods we produce (including things like, say, the metal body of said trains) are carbon intensive in their manufacture. But it's not impossible to change that.
- 11235813213455 7y ago
  It's not easy to fight consumerism, all governments goals are even to keep it high, sadly. But there must be new rules, with climate/environment in first role I live in France, electricity isn't too dirty to produce (nuclear), and I can't say I abuse it, I don't heat a lot, I like to sleep in the cold, maybe 3 months a year, and I have no air-conditioning of course, this is a nonsense. I use a bike for everything, so my main CO2 footprint might be from the vegetables/fruits I buy, they are still quite locally produced (France/Spain/Italy/Morocco for clementines sometimes) (I mean I wouldn't buy a pineapple/mango from another continent, this too is an absolute nonsense)
growlist 7y ago
Well yes but also, reducing migration to high-income countries would be an incredibly cheap and easy way to halt the march towards global over-consumption. I've not yet seen a single decent argument from someone that's pro-migration explaining how shifting millions of people from lower-income economies into high-consumption Europe is somehow eco-friendly: not one!
- bjourne 7y ago
  Have you calculated how much additional pollution is directly caused by immigration to Europe and North America? If you haven't but you assume that the amount is substantial aren't you just spreading bullshit?
  - growlist 7y ago
    It just amazes me that people seem able to be pro-migration and pro-environment and seriously believe there is no contradiction between the two. Those people that move are going to need somewhere to live, work, go to school, shop, etc etc. All of that requires constrution, which is massively carbon intensive. Less migration means less of that construction, and also avoids the negative impacts on both the source and the destination. Far better to have people with their own people rather than forced to the other side of the world. And we get to maintain the distinctive cultures of the world. I love diversity: that's why I think we should stop trying to destroy it.
    - erikpukinskis 7y ago
      Being “pro environment” doesn’t mean you believe every other concern must be sacrificed at the alter of the environment at every opportunity.
    - vkreso 7y ago
      Those darned people looking for better life opportunities, security and happiness by moving to the developed world. Calling such behavior "forced" is so inconsiderate. It blows my mind that you are trying to blame people for trying to find better lives. Should a lady in a brazilian favela not have washing machines? Should people not experience and use electric light or air travel? I also assume you are from the west which makes your position extremely arrogant as well. I am very afraid of what the environmentalist movenment is turning into and would not be surprised to see major violent eco-terrorist events in the future. Makes me ashamed to support green policies. So inconsiderate.
homonculus1 7y ago
Why should everyone have to change to live like you so that we can optimize for making more and more shitloads of people? As far as I'm concerned my consumption ends with me, the real problem is that everyone else insists on having exponential numbers of kids.

jaynetics 7y ago

I like your approach, but have two small caveats: if you're living in a regular house or apartment in the Western world, with electricity, plumbing, heating etc., perhaps using public transportation several times a week, you might produce much less carbon than your fellow citizens, but probably not less than the average human. With current sources of energy, this is unsustainable for 4, let alone 10 billion people. The other thing is: consumerism must go, but it's no easy feat. So many people in 1st world countries work in jobs that make zero sense in a post-consumerist society. Advertising is a huge industry. Even many tech giants like the FAANGs would become largely superfluous. There will have to be a gentle transition, not a "drastic" one, or 2019 politics will end up looking like a fairytale in hindsight.

esotericn 7y ago
> if you're living in a regular house or apartment in the Western world, with electricity, plumbing, heating etc., perhaps using public transportation several times a week, you might produce much less carbon than your fellow citizens, but probably not less than the average human A large part of this is due to current practices surrounding energy and material goods production though, as you point out. For example, the UK has an intensity of approx 300g CO2 emitted per kWh on the national grid. We also have diesel trains. A lot of the material goods we produce (including things like, say, the metal body of said trains) are carbon intensive in their manufacture. But it's not impossible to change that.
11235813213455 7y ago
It's not easy to fight consumerism, all governments goals are even to keep it high, sadly. But there must be new rules, with climate/environment in first role I live in France, electricity isn't too dirty to produce (nuclear), and I can't say I abuse it, I don't heat a lot, I like to sleep in the cold, maybe 3 months a year, and I have no air-conditioning of course, this is a nonsense. I use a bike for everything, so my main CO2 footprint might be from the vegetables/fruits I buy, they are still quite locally produced (France/Spain/Italy/Morocco for clementines sometimes) (I mean I wouldn't buy a pineapple/mango from another continent, this too is an absolute nonsense)

growlist 7y ago

Well yes but also, reducing migration to high-income countries would be an incredibly cheap and easy way to halt the march towards global over-consumption. I've not yet seen a single decent argument from someone that's pro-migration explaining how shifting millions of people from lower-income economies into high-consumption Europe is somehow eco-friendly: not one!

bjourne 7y ago
Have you calculated how much additional pollution is directly caused by immigration to Europe and North America? If you haven't but you assume that the amount is substantial aren't you just spreading bullshit?
- growlist 7y ago
  It just amazes me that people seem able to be pro-migration and pro-environment and seriously believe there is no contradiction between the two. Those people that move are going to need somewhere to live, work, go to school, shop, etc etc. All of that requires constrution, which is massively carbon intensive. Less migration means less of that construction, and also avoids the negative impacts on both the source and the destination. Far better to have people with their own people rather than forced to the other side of the world. And we get to maintain the distinctive cultures of the world. I love diversity: that's why I think we should stop trying to destroy it.
  - erikpukinskis 7y ago
    Being “pro environment” doesn’t mean you believe every other concern must be sacrificed at the alter of the environment at every opportunity.
  - vkreso 7y ago
    Those darned people looking for better life opportunities, security and happiness by moving to the developed world. Calling such behavior "forced" is so inconsiderate. It blows my mind that you are trying to blame people for trying to find better lives. Should a lady in a brazilian favela not have washing machines? Should people not experience and use electric light or air travel? I also assume you are from the west which makes your position extremely arrogant as well. I am very afraid of what the environmentalist movenment is turning into and would not be surprised to see major violent eco-terrorist events in the future. Makes me ashamed to support green policies. So inconsiderate.

homonculus1 7y ago

Why should everyone have to change to live like you so that we can optimize for making more and more shitloads of people? As far as I'm concerned my consumption ends with me, the real problem is that everyone else insists on having exponential numbers of kids.