6 ms·

Is the "Mac OS Lion" version accurate ? If so it seems wildly inferior to the other versions : - it's hidden, meaning you don't know where to put your mouse to

by ajnin 7y ago

Is the "Mac OS Lion" version accurate ? If so it seems wildly inferior to the other versions : - it's hidden, meaning you don't know where to put your mouse to interact with it - it's hidden, so you don't even know in the first place if there is more to the current window than what you see, and how much - it's animated, making you lose time watching a pointless distracting animation every time you need to use the scrollbar - it lost the "previous position shadow" feature that older scrollbars had, but it's not the only one to have made that choice

NeedMoreTea 7y ago
It's accurate. :( Agreed that it's wildly inferior and a direct copy of how iOS does it, which might make sense on a small phone but is shit on a nice expansive desktop. You can make them permanently visible in settings, but they're still downrated (too narrow) and second rate compared to previously. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/3/#scroll-bars https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/3/#scr...
Causality1 7y ago
Change is driven by marketing demands as much as by genuine innovation. For example, with Windows 10 Microsoft removed the outlines from everything so almost everything in the UI blends together with everything else. The lack of contrast and distinct borders makes user interaction slower and less accurate but hey, it looks really sexy in the advertisements.
- disconcision 7y ago
  > makes user interaction slower and less accurate Does it? The windows flat UI gets continuous flak on HN and I'm wondering if there's any evidence for it being less usable, beyond opinion.
  - solstice 7y ago
    Enable dark mode on win 10 and have two explorer windows overlap so that only the title bars are visible (the way the os cascades windows). Where does one end and the other begin? So many misclicks...
  - barneygale 7y ago
    Bevels provide information about the relationships between controls. Visually "deeper" (concave) controls provide more detailed, contextual information. Buttons are convex because they act on the surface to which they're attached. Windows 2000 professional was a high point for the language of UI design, if not the individual implementations...
    - disconcision 7y ago
      I've heard explanations like this, yes, but I haven't seen any empirical evidence supporting the conclusion that flat interfaces are harder to use or learn or are prone to misclicks etc. For my part I've used each version of Windows since 2.0, and have not noticed any decline in usability with the advent of the flat style in windows 8. Personally, I mildly prefer the current design language to the windows 2000 one (although I also consider that a local maximum), mostly due to the lack of visual noise. Personally, I have not experienced any of the usability frustrations evoked in this thread. As someone increasingly moving towards UI design though, I'm willing to check personal preferences against hard data.
  - hrktb 7y ago
    Not windows in particular, but relative to flat UIs, I’d see Apple going full flat in iOS7 and having to bring bag borders and clearer buttons in the next versions as a pretty good sign those were needed.
DonHopkins 7y ago
Steven Levy on the Demise of the Scroll Bar (Wired Magazine, 2011-09-27) https://www.wired.com/2011/09/reviews-levy-scrollbar/ https://www.wired.com/2011/09/reviews-levy-scrollbar/ >BEFITTING ITS FEARSOME name, Apple's new Lion operating system doesn't shy away from challenges. App organization has been radically reinvented and the workspace redesigned. But one change resonates with the force of history: Windows no longer sport the right-hand navigational element with the tablike "elevator" indicating one's place within a document. In other words, Apple has killed the scroll bar. [...] >The scroll bar's demise comes after a storied history. It was first implemented at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center as part of the Smalltalk operating environment that was installed on the lab's bitmapped computer systems. "I first saw it there around 1975," says Larry Tesler, then a PARC researcher. "There were no arrows—just a bar with an elevator. You clicked above or below it to move a chunk of text." [...] >It was a model that ruled for more than 30 years. But then came something even more natural—multitouch gestures. Apple was willing to transform its operating system to implement them. And so the scroll bar got eaten by a Lion. iOS, OS X and The Death of the Scrollbar (GigaOm, 2011-05-04) https://gigaom.com/2011/05/04/ios-os-x-and-the-death-of-the-scrollbar/ https://gigaom.com/2011/05/04/ios-os-x-and-the-death-of-the-... >The scrollbar in OS X Lion does have an advantage in that it doesn’t take up as much space and visual weight in the interface. Gestures provide enough flexibility in control schemes that we don’t have to rely on a mouse click on the scrollbar control to move the viewport and a mouse click on the content to move the cursor. We have multiple ways to interact directly with the content. Content is highlighted before UI controls. What remains to be seen is if the change will prove as comfortable in practice as the theory might suggest.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by ajnin 7y ago

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

It's accurate. :( Agreed that it's wildly inferior and a direct copy of how iOS does it, which might make sense on a small phone but is shit on a nice expansive desktop. You can make them permanently visible in settings, but they're still downrated (too narrow) and second rate compared to previously. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/3/#scroll-bars https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2011/07/mac-os-x-10-7/3/#scr...

Causality1 7y ago

Change is driven by marketing demands as much as by genuine innovation. For example, with Windows 10 Microsoft removed the outlines from everything so almost everything in the UI blends together with everything else. The lack of contrast and distinct borders makes user interaction slower and less accurate but hey, it looks really sexy in the advertisements.

disconcision 7y ago
> makes user interaction slower and less accurate Does it? The windows flat UI gets continuous flak on HN and I'm wondering if there's any evidence for it being less usable, beyond opinion.
- solstice 7y ago
  Enable dark mode on win 10 and have two explorer windows overlap so that only the title bars are visible (the way the os cascades windows). Where does one end and the other begin? So many misclicks...
- barneygale 7y ago
  Bevels provide information about the relationships between controls. Visually "deeper" (concave) controls provide more detailed, contextual information. Buttons are convex because they act on the surface to which they're attached. Windows 2000 professional was a high point for the language of UI design, if not the individual implementations...
  - disconcision 7y ago
    I've heard explanations like this, yes, but I haven't seen any empirical evidence supporting the conclusion that flat interfaces are harder to use or learn or are prone to misclicks etc. For my part I've used each version of Windows since 2.0, and have not noticed any decline in usability with the advent of the flat style in windows 8. Personally, I mildly prefer the current design language to the windows 2000 one (although I also consider that a local maximum), mostly due to the lack of visual noise. Personally, I have not experienced any of the usability frustrations evoked in this thread. As someone increasingly moving towards UI design though, I'm willing to check personal preferences against hard data.
- hrktb 7y ago
  Not windows in particular, but relative to flat UIs, I’d see Apple going full flat in iOS7 and having to bring bag borders and clearer buttons in the next versions as a pretty good sign those were needed.

DonHopkins 7y ago

Steven Levy on the Demise of the Scroll Bar (Wired Magazine, 2011-09-27) https://www.wired.com/2011/09/reviews-levy-scrollbar/ https://www.wired.com/2011/09/reviews-levy-scrollbar/ >BEFITTING ITS FEARSOME name, Apple's new Lion operating system doesn't shy away from challenges. App organization has been radically reinvented and the workspace redesigned. But one change resonates with the force of history: Windows no longer sport the right-hand navigational element with the tablike "elevator" indicating one's place within a document. In other words, Apple has killed the scroll bar. [...] >The scroll bar's demise comes after a storied history. It was first implemented at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center as part of the Smalltalk operating environment that was installed on the lab's bitmapped computer systems. "I first saw it there around 1975," says Larry Tesler, then a PARC researcher. "There were no arrows—just a bar with an elevator. You clicked above or below it to move a chunk of text." [...] >It was a model that ruled for more than 30 years. But then came something even more natural—multitouch gestures. Apple was willing to transform its operating system to implement them. And so the scroll bar got eaten by a Lion. iOS, OS X and The Death of the Scrollbar (GigaOm, 2011-05-04) https://gigaom.com/2011/05/04/ios-os-x-and-the-death-of-the-scrollbar/ https://gigaom.com/2011/05/04/ios-os-x-and-the-death-of-the-... >The scrollbar in OS X Lion does have an advantage in that it doesn’t take up as much space and visual weight in the interface. Gestures provide enough flexibility in control schemes that we don’t have to rely on a mouse click on the scrollbar control to move the viewport and a mouse click on the content to move the cursor. We have multiple ways to interact directly with the content. Content is highlighted before UI controls. What remains to be seen is if the change will prove as comfortable in practice as the theory might suggest.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]