5 ms·

It's pretty unhealthy to wake up in the dark. And schools generally let out in the early afternoon, so summer time would just send kids to school in the dark fo

by pkulak 7y ago

It's pretty unhealthy to wake up in the dark. And schools generally let out in the early afternoon, so summer time would just send kids to school in the dark for the winter.

CydeWeys 7y ago
If you're at far enough north latitudes you don't have much of a choice; daylight isn't long enough in winter and there's not enough of it to go around to all times when you'd want it. Optimizing for daylight in the morning when the earliest risers are waking, at the expense of having it go dark soon after lunchtime, isn't a great trade-off.
- jerf 7y ago
  To put some concrete numbers around that, by meaningless cosmic coincidence, it happens that around the 45 latitude line, the summer/winter oscillation occurs at nearly exactly 1/3rd and 2/3rds, that is, in winter you get 8 hours of daylight and 16 of darkness, and in summer you get 16 hours of daylight and 8 hours of darkness. The 45th runs through the northern United States, putting nearly all of Canada in an even more extreme environment, and runs through the middle of Western Europe and the southern part of Eastern Europe. So it's a very significant portion of the northern hemisphere that is subject to these conditions, both by geography and by population centers. So, it's not just a few stragglers at the poles or something; it's a major chunk of civilization. As it happens, not much of the land mass of the southern hemisphere is south of 45S. See https://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/latitude-longitude.html https://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/latitude-longitude.html , for instance.
  - akhosravian 7y ago
    Combined population of Europe and Canada is under 600 million. While it’s certainly a large part of this website’s audience, I think it is a stretch to call it a “major chunk of civilization”.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      It's closer to 800 million, and "major" doesn't mean "majority".
- pkulak 7y ago
  > earliest risers are waking I don't think there's any reason to turn this into an us vs them thing. Where I live, at only about 45 degrees, permanent DST would have the sun rising at 8:50 in the dead of winter. I don't think I've ever known anyone who wakes later than that.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    At some point places far enough north are just going to have to adjust hourly schedules by the season anyway. Daylight vs standard time doesn't fix it.
  - dasil003 7y ago
    Isn’t that because you live very far west in your time zone (eg. Bordeaux)? In the true center of a time zone at the 45th parallel I’d expect 0800-1600 daylight on the winter solstice.
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    > I don't think I've ever known anyone who wakes later than that. There are a lot of us. And considering all of the ways society makes life harder for night owls (including being incredulous that we even exist, as shown here), I'm surprised permanent DST is even on the table. But I'll take it.
    - dtech 7y ago
      Ayep, somehow you're lazy if you prefer sleeping at 2AM and waking at 10AM, and hardworking if you prefer sleeping at 10PM and waking at 6AM.
    - bungle 7y ago
      I am a night owl, and permanent DST is worse. I would not like that. Usually for us, night owls, it is hard to switch from standard time to dst as we need to wake up one hour earlier. The early riser society is already against us. On winter time, because of all the darkness at north (I live in Finland), it would be hard to get up as the sun is not helping. Standard time during winters at least helps a bit as you can wake up with some sun light. Sure the downside is that it is dark after work. But for me it would be dark, no matter what. I am not leaving my work at 2pm to enjoy the light, which is gone at 4pm. On summer it is never dark, so you can jog at 2am just fine.
- bonzini 7y ago
  You do not have to be that far north. In Italy, which is pretty much the optimal latitude for DST and also very close to the "right" longitude for its time zone, the sun rises around 8am in the winter, which would be 9am with year-round DST. Schools start between 8am and 8:30am (the latter for elementary school), which would be dark.
  - saghm 7y ago
    Not to try to take this conversation off-topic, but there are some reasonable arguments for starting schools later too; it's not like the time schools starts is immutable and we have to design our time system around that
tolmasky 7y ago
IIRC the flip side is we waste a lot of energy by allocating the hour of sunlight to the morning where many people are still asleep vs. the afternoon when almost everyone is awake and thus needs to turn on lights and heat.
- pkulak 7y ago
  Maybe a long time ago when lights actually used a lot of energy. For me, it's all about the heat. And if my family gets up in the dark, when it's coldest, and the heat pump turns on, that's probably my biggest energy draw of the day. If I can wait just an hour for the sun to come up and the air to become even a few degrees warmer, my heat pump just became a lot more efficient.
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    The heating system is on all day, is it not? Why does the clock make a difference? I guess if you have no pets you might turn it down while you're not home but it still has to stay on some to keep the pipes from freezing.
    - MereInterest 7y ago
      During the night, most people are under blankets, and so the temperature doesn't need to be as high. If people wake up earlier in the morning, it is colder when they get out of bed. They then turn up the thermostat in the morning, and never turn it back down as the day goes on. When Indiana implemented DST in 2006, power consumption increased by ~1%. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-daylight-saving-times-save-energy/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-daylight-sav...
    - taeric 7y ago
      I think the point is few places need heat as much during the day as they do at night. Do they? Just look at the daily high/low. The low is at night. This would be a neat graphic. What does this do to the average temperature morning and evening.

by pkulak 7y ago

It's pretty unhealthy to wake up in the dark. And schools generally let out in the early afternoon, so summer time would just send kids to school in the dark for the winter.

CydeWeys 7y ago

If you're at far enough north latitudes you don't have much of a choice; daylight isn't long enough in winter and there's not enough of it to go around to all times when you'd want it. Optimizing for daylight in the morning when the earliest risers are waking, at the expense of having it go dark soon after lunchtime, isn't a great trade-off.

jerf 7y ago
To put some concrete numbers around that, by meaningless cosmic coincidence, it happens that around the 45 latitude line, the summer/winter oscillation occurs at nearly exactly 1/3rd and 2/3rds, that is, in winter you get 8 hours of daylight and 16 of darkness, and in summer you get 16 hours of daylight and 8 hours of darkness. The 45th runs through the northern United States, putting nearly all of Canada in an even more extreme environment, and runs through the middle of Western Europe and the southern part of Eastern Europe. So it's a very significant portion of the northern hemisphere that is subject to these conditions, both by geography and by population centers. So, it's not just a few stragglers at the poles or something; it's a major chunk of civilization. As it happens, not much of the land mass of the southern hemisphere is south of 45S. See https://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/latitude-longitude.html https://www.mapsofindia.com/worldmap/latitude-longitude.html , for instance.
- akhosravian 7y ago
  Combined population of Europe and Canada is under 600 million. While it’s certainly a large part of this website’s audience, I think it is a stretch to call it a “major chunk of civilization”.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    It's closer to 800 million, and "major" doesn't mean "majority".
pkulak 7y ago
> earliest risers are waking I don't think there's any reason to turn this into an us vs them thing. Where I live, at only about 45 degrees, permanent DST would have the sun rising at 8:50 in the dead of winter. I don't think I've ever known anyone who wakes later than that.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  At some point places far enough north are just going to have to adjust hourly schedules by the season anyway. Daylight vs standard time doesn't fix it.
- dasil003 7y ago
  Isn’t that because you live very far west in your time zone (eg. Bordeaux)? In the true center of a time zone at the 45th parallel I’d expect 0800-1600 daylight on the winter solstice.
- balfirevic 7y ago
  > I don't think I've ever known anyone who wakes later than that. There are a lot of us. And considering all of the ways society makes life harder for night owls (including being incredulous that we even exist, as shown here), I'm surprised permanent DST is even on the table. But I'll take it.
  - dtech 7y ago
    Ayep, somehow you're lazy if you prefer sleeping at 2AM and waking at 10AM, and hardworking if you prefer sleeping at 10PM and waking at 6AM.
  - bungle 7y ago
    I am a night owl, and permanent DST is worse. I would not like that. Usually for us, night owls, it is hard to switch from standard time to dst as we need to wake up one hour earlier. The early riser society is already against us. On winter time, because of all the darkness at north (I live in Finland), it would be hard to get up as the sun is not helping. Standard time during winters at least helps a bit as you can wake up with some sun light. Sure the downside is that it is dark after work. But for me it would be dark, no matter what. I am not leaving my work at 2pm to enjoy the light, which is gone at 4pm. On summer it is never dark, so you can jog at 2am just fine.
bonzini 7y ago
You do not have to be that far north. In Italy, which is pretty much the optimal latitude for DST and also very close to the "right" longitude for its time zone, the sun rises around 8am in the winter, which would be 9am with year-round DST. Schools start between 8am and 8:30am (the latter for elementary school), which would be dark.
- saghm 7y ago
  Not to try to take this conversation off-topic, but there are some reasonable arguments for starting schools later too; it's not like the time schools starts is immutable and we have to design our time system around that

tolmasky 7y ago

IIRC the flip side is we waste a lot of energy by allocating the hour of sunlight to the morning where many people are still asleep vs. the afternoon when almost everyone is awake and thus needs to turn on lights and heat.

pkulak 7y ago
Maybe a long time ago when lights actually used a lot of energy. For me, it's all about the heat. And if my family gets up in the dark, when it's coldest, and the heat pump turns on, that's probably my biggest energy draw of the day. If I can wait just an hour for the sun to come up and the air to become even a few degrees warmer, my heat pump just became a lot more efficient.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  The heating system is on all day, is it not? Why does the clock make a difference? I guess if you have no pets you might turn it down while you're not home but it still has to stay on some to keep the pipes from freezing.
  - MereInterest 7y ago
    During the night, most people are under blankets, and so the temperature doesn't need to be as high. If people wake up earlier in the morning, it is colder when they get out of bed. They then turn up the thermostat in the morning, and never turn it back down as the day goes on. When Indiana implemented DST in 2006, power consumption increased by ~1%. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-daylight-saving-times-save-energy/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-daylight-sav...
  - taeric 7y ago
    I think the point is few places need heat as much during the day as they do at night. Do they? Just look at the daily high/low. The low is at night. This would be a neat graphic. What does this do to the average temperature morning and evening.