6 ms·

I disagree. DST would be better. I don’t recall “permanent DST” being tried in the US and a citation would have been nice. Regardless, for me the loss of daylig

I disagree. DST would be better. I don’t recall “permanent DST” being tried in the US and a citation would have been nice. Regardless, for me the loss of daylight hours has always been difficult. Moving ~10 degrees closer to the equator has helped, but the general lack of any daylight in the evening is often still a problem. Since, as the author notes, it’s the same amount of daylight, I’d rather see it in the evening because people have little control over when their day starts. A large number of us will be waking up in the dark anyway. Better that people get at least some daylight in the evening than none at all.

ivanhoe 7y ago
It very much depends on where you live and personal lifestyle preferences. At my latitude current DST means in winter I wake up approx. around the sunrise, and while I get out of the apartment it's already full daylight. For me this is the most important thing. I'm not a morning type and I always hated to be forced to wake up in the morning while it's still pitch-black outside. It's already depressive enough that I have to go out of the warm bed to face a full day of work, but when you add a freezing cold night outside to the mix it makes me feel just miserable. And I don't care about the evenings that much. Different people, different tastes...
Osiris 7y ago
Arizona is is MST all year, which is the same as PDT, so you could argue it's always in daylight time.
hermitdev 7y ago
DST was year round in the US during WW2 and a short period after. They were referred to "War Time" and "Peace Time", respectively, at least according to the Olson timezone database.
slfnflctd 7y ago
Another factor to consider that I don't see brought up much is having the sun in your eyes while driving. It seems to me that this is more hazardous in the mornings, when you're still trying to wake up and (possibly) dealing with fog/frost on your windshield as well. Also, I have no issues with going to work when it's dark out, but going home after dark has a more forlorn feel to it. I think permanent DST - in many latitudes - would alleviate the worst effects for drivers.
jonathanstrange 7y ago
To add to this, whether you like it or not, life has generally shifted towards the evening hours. In the morning people commute, and they get up so early that DST versus wintertime doesn't make a difference anyway- it's dark in the winter. Personally, I get depressed for weeks every time we shift from DST to wintertime. I just can't stand the fact that after the shift the evenings are suddenly so dark. I'd appreciate DST the whole year round, too.
rgharris 7y ago
This might be common knowledge but I just recently realized that several states are already trying to move to daylight savings permanently. From https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/10/28/20931998/daylight-saving-time-2019 https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/10/28/20931998/d... > Arkansas, too, passed a bill to make daylight saving time permanent, but it included the condition that the changes wouldn’t go into effect until its bordering states changed their clocks permanently too. Other states that have approved legislation to enact year-long daylight saving time include Washington, Tennessee, Oregon, Nevada, and Alabama. But none of the changes can go into effect without approval from the federal government.
0x445442 7y ago
When I moved to Arizona I thought it would be great. I actually hate it because I tend to wake with the light and in the summer I feel more tired because it's hard not to wake up so early. And then in the winter I have to set an alarm to get to work on time. While not a complete solution, this problem is mitigated by adjusting the twice a year.
Riesling 7y ago
> because people have little control over when their day starts. This is actually one of the best arguments for standard time all year around! If we force people to start the day at a specific time, we have the obligation, that for as many people possible, this time will be in sync with their circadian rhythm. And this can be guaranteed best with standard time.
- jasode 7y ago
  >one of the best arguments for standard time all year around! [...], this time will be in sync with their circadian rhythm. And this can be guaranteed best with standard time. To clarify because of possible imprecision around the word "standard". I think what you're saying is that circadian regularity is best achieved with "unchanging" time instead of "standard" time. There's Standard (capital 'S') time where the high point of the sun roughly at ~12pm. And then there's Daylight Saving time where the high sun is roughly at ~1pm. A circadian rhythm can be compatible with either of those systems if it's kept the same all year long.
  - Riesling 7y ago
    Sorry for being imprecise, but I actually meant Standard Time (as in noon at about 12pm). Our circadian rhythms are not as flexible as many people think. There are many studies showing that people sleep less if the sun sets later, causing a net sleep loss with related health problems.
    - taeric 7y ago
      You know solar noon is not necessarily noon. Right? Pretty sure it changes throughout the year, too. If so, that seems more an argument for dst. I'll check in a bit. Someone may just know, though.
      - kgwgk 7y ago
        Solar noon changes a bit through the year, but the range is just half an hour: https://www.sundials.co.uk/eot https://www.sundials.co.uk/eot
tbabb 7y ago
Using permanent DST instead of ST means: - Clock noon and solar noon are one hour apart, forever - It's the same thing as rotating the clock labels for all the time zones by one step, all around the Earth We are choosing what label to put on what time of day. If the labels are fixed throughout the year, both choices are exactly equivalent, after everyone decides whether to get up an hour earlier or an hour later. But one of them separates the time from the fundamental astronomical cycle from which it is derived.
- jimmaswell 7y ago
  Solar noon isn't really relevant to anything and it's rarely perfectly accurate anyway. Businesses etc. are never all going to agree to stop working on the time schedules they're used to. So, the most pragmatic option seems to be just "tricking" them and moving the clock so that we get more daylight time in the afternoon.
  - tbabb 7y ago
    So we can change the fundamental time system, but a business changing its hours from 9am to 8am is impossible?
    - jimmaswell 7y ago
      That's the gist of it I think.
    - cgriswald 7y ago
      There isn't anything fundamental about the time system. Timezones are already an abstraction that separates clock noon and solar noon. In places, clock noon and solar noon are already forever an hour or more apart even during standard time. Sometimes even places with the same longitude are an hour or more apart. Clock noon and solar noon are only in sync at one longitude per time zone in the first place. We have already managed to survive with the delta between them jumping by an hour two times a year for decades. Given all that I'm not sure how normalizing on a larger delta would be at all impactful. For people who need solar noon, sundials and almanacs are already available and needed.
throw0101a 7y ago
> I don’t recall “permanent DST” being tried in the US and a citation would have been nice. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#1973–1975:_Year-round_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_Un...

ivanhoe 7y ago

It very much depends on where you live and personal lifestyle preferences. At my latitude current DST means in winter I wake up approx. around the sunrise, and while I get out of the apartment it's already full daylight. For me this is the most important thing. I'm not a morning type and I always hated to be forced to wake up in the morning while it's still pitch-black outside. It's already depressive enough that I have to go out of the warm bed to face a full day of work, but when you add a freezing cold night outside to the mix it makes me feel just miserable. And I don't care about the evenings that much. Different people, different tastes...

Osiris 7y ago

Arizona is is MST all year, which is the same as PDT, so you could argue it's always in daylight time.

hermitdev 7y ago

DST was year round in the US during WW2 and a short period after. They were referred to "War Time" and "Peace Time", respectively, at least according to the Olson timezone database.

slfnflctd 7y ago

Another factor to consider that I don't see brought up much is having the sun in your eyes while driving. It seems to me that this is more hazardous in the mornings, when you're still trying to wake up and (possibly) dealing with fog/frost on your windshield as well. Also, I have no issues with going to work when it's dark out, but going home after dark has a more forlorn feel to it. I think permanent DST - in many latitudes - would alleviate the worst effects for drivers.

jonathanstrange 7y ago

To add to this, whether you like it or not, life has generally shifted towards the evening hours. In the morning people commute, and they get up so early that DST versus wintertime doesn't make a difference anyway- it's dark in the winter. Personally, I get depressed for weeks every time we shift from DST to wintertime. I just can't stand the fact that after the shift the evenings are suddenly so dark. I'd appreciate DST the whole year round, too.

rgharris 7y ago

This might be common knowledge but I just recently realized that several states are already trying to move to daylight savings permanently. From https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/10/28/20931998/daylight-saving-time-2019 https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/10/28/20931998/d... > Arkansas, too, passed a bill to make daylight saving time permanent, but it included the condition that the changes wouldn’t go into effect until its bordering states changed their clocks permanently too. Other states that have approved legislation to enact year-long daylight saving time include Washington, Tennessee, Oregon, Nevada, and Alabama. But none of the changes can go into effect without approval from the federal government.

0x445442 7y ago

When I moved to Arizona I thought it would be great. I actually hate it because I tend to wake with the light and in the summer I feel more tired because it's hard not to wake up so early. And then in the winter I have to set an alarm to get to work on time. While not a complete solution, this problem is mitigated by adjusting the twice a year.

Riesling 7y ago

> because people have little control over when their day starts. This is actually one of the best arguments for standard time all year around! If we force people to start the day at a specific time, we have the obligation, that for as many people possible, this time will be in sync with their circadian rhythm. And this can be guaranteed best with standard time.

jasode 7y ago
>one of the best arguments for standard time all year around! [...], this time will be in sync with their circadian rhythm. And this can be guaranteed best with standard time. To clarify because of possible imprecision around the word "standard". I think what you're saying is that circadian regularity is best achieved with "unchanging" time instead of "standard" time. There's Standard (capital 'S') time where the high point of the sun roughly at ~12pm. And then there's Daylight Saving time where the high sun is roughly at ~1pm. A circadian rhythm can be compatible with either of those systems if it's kept the same all year long.
- Riesling 7y ago
  Sorry for being imprecise, but I actually meant Standard Time (as in noon at about 12pm). Our circadian rhythms are not as flexible as many people think. There are many studies showing that people sleep less if the sun sets later, causing a net sleep loss with related health problems.
  - taeric 7y ago
    You know solar noon is not necessarily noon. Right? Pretty sure it changes throughout the year, too. If so, that seems more an argument for dst. I'll check in a bit. Someone may just know, though.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      Solar noon changes a bit through the year, but the range is just half an hour: https://www.sundials.co.uk/eot https://www.sundials.co.uk/eot

tbabb 7y ago

Using permanent DST instead of ST means: - Clock noon and solar noon are one hour apart, forever - It's the same thing as rotating the clock labels for all the time zones by one step, all around the Earth We are choosing what label to put on what time of day. If the labels are fixed throughout the year, both choices are exactly equivalent, after everyone decides whether to get up an hour earlier or an hour later. But one of them separates the time from the fundamental astronomical cycle from which it is derived.

jimmaswell 7y ago
Solar noon isn't really relevant to anything and it's rarely perfectly accurate anyway. Businesses etc. are never all going to agree to stop working on the time schedules they're used to. So, the most pragmatic option seems to be just "tricking" them and moving the clock so that we get more daylight time in the afternoon.
- tbabb 7y ago
  So we can change the fundamental time system, but a business changing its hours from 9am to 8am is impossible?
  - jimmaswell 7y ago
    That's the gist of it I think.
  - cgriswald 7y ago
    There isn't anything fundamental about the time system. Timezones are already an abstraction that separates clock noon and solar noon. In places, clock noon and solar noon are already forever an hour or more apart even during standard time. Sometimes even places with the same longitude are an hour or more apart. Clock noon and solar noon are only in sync at one longitude per time zone in the first place. We have already managed to survive with the delta between them jumping by an hour two times a year for decades. Given all that I'm not sure how normalizing on a larger delta would be at all impactful. For people who need solar noon, sundials and almanacs are already available and needed.

throw0101a 7y ago

> I don’t recall “permanent DST” being tried in the US and a citation would have been nice. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_United_States#1973–1975:_Year-round_experiment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_in_the_Un...