4 ms·

I am surprised to see no changes to the top row of 1-0. Can we just get rid of the number keys and put them in a numpad format on the side? Sequential numbers o

I am surprised to see no changes to the top row of 1-0. Can we just get rid of the number keys and put them in a numpad format on the side? Sequential numbers on the top are (arguably) worse than numpad.

jaytaylor 7y ago
What is the argument for sequential numbers up top being sub-optimal? Some issues and questions: - Many notebook keyboards will not accommodate a number pad. - What is the plan for !@#$%^&*()_+ and "~"? - Where will the backspace key be located?
- rococode 7y ago
  Not to say that I think it's particularly practical, but there is a somewhat well-established "40%" keyboard design that doesn't have a number row. They typically rely heavily on modifier keys or layer switching. Here's an example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MS3PWS0 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MS3PWS0 If you're interested in different keyboard sizes: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-tkl-60-and-more-a-guide-to-mechanical-keyboard-sizes/ https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-... I personally use 75%, my opinion is for serious coding it's inefficient to go smaller than that.
  - dlevine 7y ago
    I have used a 60% for the past 4 years or so, and have found it to be just fine for daily coding. I use VIM keybindings in my text editor, so my navigation keys are on home row and I don't need them (for non-VIM contexts, I just use FN+WASD, which is pretty effortless). I also mapped Caps Lock to ESC, since I never need that anyways, and it's more efficient. I don't think that the F-keys or Home/End/Pgup/Pgdn cluster are really critical for coding (plus the F-keys can be emulated with FN+numkeys). Obviously, some editor bindings may require those keys. It really seems to me like the only thing you lose with a 60% is the arrow keys, and you can always go to a 65% layout if you need them. I use a 40% Planck for a while, and honestly didn't really like it much (got some strain in my pinky after a while).
  - alpaca128 7y ago
    > my opinion is for serious coding it's inefficient to go smaller than that. I'd say it depends. With a "normal" layout probably true, however I found I am at least as quick with programming on my ~45% keyboard. Mainly it's because I moved all the special characters and arrow keys down to the letters on a secondary layer. That allows me to enter anything without moving or stretching my hands, which I find very pleasant and at least feels very efficient. The layers are switched with thumb keys, so they're always accessible quickly. For me it was the best approach(especially compared to Dvorak, Colemak etc.) because it's still fully compatible with Vim and other programs without needing to relearn and reconfigure everything. Although I must admit when I'm typing on a qwerty keyboard I always need a few minutes to get used to it again.
    - Gehinnn 7y ago
      Have you heard of neo2? They have 6 layers, one only for programming characters and one for navigation. It's super practical.
      - alpaca128 7y ago
        Any layout that changes the positions of letters is super unpractical in my opinion, as it first requires many months of practice to get back to speed and then it's incompatible with many programs like Vim. Also typing on any other keyboard becomes a nightmare.
andreareina 7y ago
For occasional numeric entry I find the number row is vastly superior to the numpad as I don't need to move my hand.
intellix 7y ago
I'm using them all the time for entry and shortcuts. Cmd + 1 for switching to the first tab/item/thing. Even bought a tenkeyless gaming keyboard. I was having the opposite thought that we should deprecate the number pad and just leave it as an additional hardware add-on for accountants
- egypturnash 7y ago
  I got an external numeric pad mostly for playing Roguelikes. :)
aasasd 7y ago
I've heard that pre-computer typewriters actually required the ‘shift’ key pressed for numbers, and had symbols available without ‘shift,’ so numbers as primary symbols in the top row are an invention of computer engineers. Though looking at photos of typewriters suggests differently. You can switch the shift-behavior with some software, e.g. Karabiner for Mac.
- shpx 7y ago
  You can also use Programmer Dvorak, where you have to use shift to type numbers instead of symbols and the numbers are laid out as in Dvoraks original keyboard, so that the index fingers are typing the most common ones 7531902468 https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ Available on Linux with setxkbmap us -variant dvp
mkl 7y ago
I tried a custom layout that did that for a while. I put the arrow keys in the centre (Qwerty's y, g, h, b), I think along with some other usually far away things. Then the letters needed to extend up onto the number row, so I made the function keys the numbers, and the numeric keypad the function keys. I used it enough to touch type at a decent speed, but I didn't keep using it for long, as at that point I was better off avoiding keyboards entirely. Numbers only on the numeric keypad would be awfully inconvenient for programming.
Jaruzel 7y ago
As a lefthander I find using the numpad difficult as it is on the wrong side on standard keyboards. As I use more than one machine daily, having a custom reversed keyboard is not an option. As such I basically never do number entry using the numpad.

jaytaylor 7y ago

What is the argument for sequential numbers up top being sub-optimal? Some issues and questions: - Many notebook keyboards will not accommodate a number pad. - What is the plan for !@#$%^&*()_+ and "~"? - Where will the backspace key be located?

rococode 7y ago
Not to say that I think it's particularly practical, but there is a somewhat well-established "40%" keyboard design that doesn't have a number row. They typically rely heavily on modifier keys or layer switching. Here's an example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MS3PWS0 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MS3PWS0 If you're interested in different keyboard sizes: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-tkl-60-and-more-a-guide-to-mechanical-keyboard-sizes/ https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-... I personally use 75%, my opinion is for serious coding it's inefficient to go smaller than that.
- dlevine 7y ago
  I have used a 60% for the past 4 years or so, and have found it to be just fine for daily coding. I use VIM keybindings in my text editor, so my navigation keys are on home row and I don't need them (for non-VIM contexts, I just use FN+WASD, which is pretty effortless). I also mapped Caps Lock to ESC, since I never need that anyways, and it's more efficient. I don't think that the F-keys or Home/End/Pgup/Pgdn cluster are really critical for coding (plus the F-keys can be emulated with FN+numkeys). Obviously, some editor bindings may require those keys. It really seems to me like the only thing you lose with a 60% is the arrow keys, and you can always go to a 65% layout if you need them. I use a 40% Planck for a while, and honestly didn't really like it much (got some strain in my pinky after a while).
- alpaca128 7y ago
  > my opinion is for serious coding it's inefficient to go smaller than that. I'd say it depends. With a "normal" layout probably true, however I found I am at least as quick with programming on my ~45% keyboard. Mainly it's because I moved all the special characters and arrow keys down to the letters on a secondary layer. That allows me to enter anything without moving or stretching my hands, which I find very pleasant and at least feels very efficient. The layers are switched with thumb keys, so they're always accessible quickly. For me it was the best approach(especially compared to Dvorak, Colemak etc.) because it's still fully compatible with Vim and other programs without needing to relearn and reconfigure everything. Although I must admit when I'm typing on a qwerty keyboard I always need a few minutes to get used to it again.
  - Gehinnn 7y ago
    Have you heard of neo2? They have 6 layers, one only for programming characters and one for navigation. It's super practical.
    - alpaca128 7y ago
      Any layout that changes the positions of letters is super unpractical in my opinion, as it first requires many months of practice to get back to speed and then it's incompatible with many programs like Vim. Also typing on any other keyboard becomes a nightmare.

andreareina 7y ago

For occasional numeric entry I find the number row is vastly superior to the numpad as I don't need to move my hand.

intellix 7y ago

I'm using them all the time for entry and shortcuts. Cmd + 1 for switching to the first tab/item/thing. Even bought a tenkeyless gaming keyboard. I was having the opposite thought that we should deprecate the number pad and just leave it as an additional hardware add-on for accountants

egypturnash 7y ago
I got an external numeric pad mostly for playing Roguelikes. :)

aasasd 7y ago

I've heard that pre-computer typewriters actually required the ‘shift’ key pressed for numbers, and had symbols available without ‘shift,’ so numbers as primary symbols in the top row are an invention of computer engineers. Though looking at photos of typewriters suggests differently. You can switch the shift-behavior with some software, e.g. Karabiner for Mac.

shpx 7y ago
You can also use Programmer Dvorak, where you have to use shift to type numbers instead of symbols and the numbers are laid out as in Dvoraks original keyboard, so that the index fingers are typing the most common ones 7531902468 https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ https://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ Available on Linux with setxkbmap us -variant dvp

mkl 7y ago

I tried a custom layout that did that for a while. I put the arrow keys in the centre (Qwerty's y, g, h, b), I think along with some other usually far away things. Then the letters needed to extend up onto the number row, so I made the function keys the numbers, and the numeric keypad the function keys. I used it enough to touch type at a decent speed, but I didn't keep using it for long, as at that point I was better off avoiding keyboards entirely. Numbers only on the numeric keypad would be awfully inconvenient for programming.

Jaruzel 7y ago

As a lefthander I find using the numpad difficult as it is on the wrong side on standard keyboards. As I use more than one machine daily, having a custom reversed keyboard is not an option. As such I basically never do number entry using the numpad.