8 ms·

I think the problem is that there are two nearly polar opposite desires for UI and processing, that require totally different approaches to a camera. One is th

by CarVac 7y ago

I think the problem is that there are two nearly polar opposite desires for UI and processing, that require totally different approaches to a camera. One is the smartphone user who desires good quality for whatever the situation, who just wants a photo uploaded to Instagram or whatever, NOW. They don't want to learn how to adjust exposure compensation to expose-to-the-right for optimal raw image quality. This user wants lots of R&D spent on computational photography, lots of processing power on the phone, and a simplified UI that just gets out of the way. The other is the enthusiast photographer who shoots for either pleasure or maximum quality. This user wants all the control, all of the time: they've invested time and effort into nailing exposure, mastering autofocus, all while composing beautiful shots. A smartphone interface is not what you want: the best images are often captured in difficult environments where a touchscreen just gets in the way and you must have hard control points. As far as processing goes, they don't really need any of it; they'll often just process in post. Just gimme the raw data and that's all I need. Can any manufacturer manage both? Much less in the same camera? For a competitive price? I'm not sure.

Swizec 7y ago
As a semi-enthusiast I really really like the photos my Canon takes. It would be beyond amazing if I could get them on my phone immediately without having to faff around with a weird wifi tether or waiting until I'm at a computer to mess about with SD Card transfers. edit: Yes even when I just post to instagram you can immediately tell the difference between a DSLR photo and a phone photo. Even with all the computational power of an iPhone X, the DSLR's optics and bigger sensor win hands down despite being a 2015 model. (Rebel T6i)
- sudosysgen 7y ago
  Well, I can transfer images from my A7ii to my phone in a few seconds. It's been done.
i_am_proteus 7y ago
The camera makers would be wise to just implement an API over Bluetooth or adhoc WiFi to pair with phones/tablets/laptops and offload RAWs and JPEGs. Lightroom mobile, etc., could then have the images swiftly processed and uploaded, and could probably be implemented with minimal changes to the newest models of camera.
- kenhwang 7y ago
  Canon and Nikon and I'm sure others already have a WiFi adapter you can plug into the SD card slot that does exactly this.
  - ip26 7y ago
    You don't even need an adapter anymore, it's been native for years on many bodies.
    - geerlingguy 7y ago
      But the software and connection process are terrible, and have been for years.
      - arethuza 7y ago
        I have a Nikon D1000 and the process is fairly painless - I use an app on my iPad to review the pictures and select the ones I want to download from the camera and once I do that they are treated like any other picture and uploaded to iCloud etc.
      - muro 7y ago
        Indeed, getting them to connect is always a few minutes of frustration that sometimes makes them connect.
      - floatboth 7y ago
        Pretty seamless on Sony. Just select "upload to smartphone", enter the password that's displayed on the camera into the Android app, done.
        Symbiote 7y ago
        At least on my Sony RX10 IV, the authentication was only necessary the first time (by NFS or QR code scan). Since then, I - Open the Sony app, press "receive" - View the picture I want to transfer, press "transfer" (physical button), select "confirm" (or select further pictures). The UI could perhaps be slightly nicer, but it's not really a barrier here.
kenhwang 7y ago
I think Sony could realistically do both in one product. They already make flagship smartphones that are hardware-competitive with everyone else's flagships. They supply the camera sensors for everyone's flagship product. They have the best DSLM and reasonably competitive lenses. Just take their current flagship smartphone, double the thickness to fit a halfway-between-smartphone-and-full-frame sensor, an SD card slot, ability to export RAWs, and a compact zoom lens, and sell it for like $2000. For extra credit, make a standard lens mount and make it swappable and now you have the manufacturer lock-in that keeping Nikon alive. The margins on the camera business plus the refresh cycle of the phone business might actually save both those divisions. Instead Sony's camera division and smartphone division are too busy trying to not step on each other's feet and both are suffering for it.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  The Sony smartphone I used to have put its low-light noise reduction behind DRM keys and if you unlocked the bootloader it irreversibly turned the camera into a piece of shit. It’ll be a cold day in hell before I buy another smartphone from them, especially for anything camera related. Plus the built-in camera app was awful to use, but 3rd party camera apps had awful image quality. I don’t know if that was Sony’s fault or related to general Android fragmentation. Either way, I got the impression they weren’t trying very hard.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    After the rootkit debacle I'm surprised that anybody on the tech side would still buy Sony gear. As a brand they're burned for me and I used to be quite the fan.
    - B1FF_PSUVM 7y ago
      Same here. Never bought anything Sony again. I also remember the poor kid who had a portable CD player almost red hot trying to play the Columbia/Sony music CD he had bought - riddled with purposeful errors to avoid PC copies. Making war on customers, indeed ...
    - 7y ago
starky 7y ago
Agreed, I know that personally I would like a camera that offered me both paradigms depending on the scenario. Not having used or looked into it much at all, something like the Hasselblad X1D seems to tread that line between dial control and a touchscreen interface in a way that is much closer to what I'm thinking. What I would really like to see from a camera is the ability to take a photo, say when travelling, and having it automatically end up on your phone with computational imaging already applied. Then with a tap, be able to pull the RAW for more in depth processing if required. I know that I do most of my processing in DxO Photolab precisely because it takes a guess at the editing for a photo before I even touch it, and therefore I spend less time post processing.
coldtea 7y ago
>This user wants all the control, all of the time: they've invested time and effort into nailing exposure, mastering autofocus, all while composing beautiful shots. A smartphone interface is not what you want: the best images are often captured in difficult environments where a touchscreen just gets in the way and you must have hard control points. You'd be surprised. Enthusiast users clamor for good autofocus, want automatic HDR and bracketing, and lots of other things...
- cthalupa 7y ago
  I've got some complaints when it comes to my a7r 3s interface, and I assume the 4 hasn't changed much, so I'm probably in the group you're talking about, but... Having better autofocus, automatic HDR and bracketing, etc., to me, has nothing to do with having a smartphone like interface or computational photography. I do want those things (or, kind of - I want better autofocus across the board, and I want the option of automatic hdr and bracketing) but I don't want an iPhone or Android style camera interface. That's damn near the opposite of what I want.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >I've got some complaints when it comes to my a7r 3s interface, and I assume the 4 hasn't changed much, so I'm probably in the group you're talking about, but... A7R III is already another crowd, there are tons of people like simpler DSLR (e.g. Nikon D3500), simpler mirroless (e.g. Olympus PEN) and compacts (tons of models). Those could all use a "smartphone like interface" and "computational photography". Now, for more hardcore enthusiasts: >I do want those things (or, kind of - I want better autofocus across the board, and I want the option of automatic hdr and bracketing) but I don't want an iPhone or Android style camera interface. Well, I'm a pro photographer (or have been, more into dev now, with a side of video), but I absolutely could use all that things. Though by iPhone or Android camera interface I don't mean seeing the same thing in your mirrorless screen. I mean more like the ability to download/write apps, advanced functionality made simple, things to automatically update/sync/post images, etc. Think more like Magic Lantern -- and the ability to write or download stuff like that with an official API.
dredmorbius 7y ago
Tyranny of the Minimum Viable User. My treatment largely focuses on software, but if you consider SW a mechanism for delivering interface and output, it applies to a physical + controls system such as cameras. Previous iterations of this phenomenon include audio equipment and bicycles. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyranny_of_the_minimum_viable_user/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyr...

by CarVac 7y ago

Swizec 7y ago

As a semi-enthusiast I really really like the photos my Canon takes. It would be beyond amazing if I could get them on my phone immediately without having to faff around with a weird wifi tether or waiting until I'm at a computer to mess about with SD Card transfers. edit: Yes even when I just post to instagram you can immediately tell the difference between a DSLR photo and a phone photo. Even with all the computational power of an iPhone X, the DSLR's optics and bigger sensor win hands down despite being a 2015 model. (Rebel T6i)

sudosysgen 7y ago
Well, I can transfer images from my A7ii to my phone in a few seconds. It's been done.

i_am_proteus 7y ago

The camera makers would be wise to just implement an API over Bluetooth or adhoc WiFi to pair with phones/tablets/laptops and offload RAWs and JPEGs. Lightroom mobile, etc., could then have the images swiftly processed and uploaded, and could probably be implemented with minimal changes to the newest models of camera.

kenhwang 7y ago
Canon and Nikon and I'm sure others already have a WiFi adapter you can plug into the SD card slot that does exactly this.
- ip26 7y ago
  You don't even need an adapter anymore, it's been native for years on many bodies.
  - geerlingguy 7y ago
    But the software and connection process are terrible, and have been for years.
    - arethuza 7y ago
      I have a Nikon D1000 and the process is fairly painless - I use an app on my iPad to review the pictures and select the ones I want to download from the camera and once I do that they are treated like any other picture and uploaded to iCloud etc.
    - muro 7y ago
      Indeed, getting them to connect is always a few minutes of frustration that sometimes makes them connect.
    - floatboth 7y ago
      Pretty seamless on Sony. Just select "upload to smartphone", enter the password that's displayed on the camera into the Android app, done.
      - Symbiote 7y ago
        At least on my Sony RX10 IV, the authentication was only necessary the first time (by NFS or QR code scan). Since then, I - Open the Sony app, press "receive" - View the picture I want to transfer, press "transfer" (physical button), select "confirm" (or select further pictures). The UI could perhaps be slightly nicer, but it's not really a barrier here.

kenhwang 7y ago

I think Sony could realistically do both in one product. They already make flagship smartphones that are hardware-competitive with everyone else's flagships. They supply the camera sensors for everyone's flagship product. They have the best DSLM and reasonably competitive lenses. Just take their current flagship smartphone, double the thickness to fit a halfway-between-smartphone-and-full-frame sensor, an SD card slot, ability to export RAWs, and a compact zoom lens, and sell it for like $2000. For extra credit, make a standard lens mount and make it swappable and now you have the manufacturer lock-in that keeping Nikon alive. The margins on the camera business plus the refresh cycle of the phone business might actually save both those divisions. Instead Sony's camera division and smartphone division are too busy trying to not step on each other's feet and both are suffering for it.

wlesieutre 7y ago
The Sony smartphone I used to have put its low-light noise reduction behind DRM keys and if you unlocked the bootloader it irreversibly turned the camera into a piece of shit. It’ll be a cold day in hell before I buy another smartphone from them, especially for anything camera related. Plus the built-in camera app was awful to use, but 3rd party camera apps had awful image quality. I don’t know if that was Sony’s fault or related to general Android fragmentation. Either way, I got the impression they weren’t trying very hard.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  After the rootkit debacle I'm surprised that anybody on the tech side would still buy Sony gear. As a brand they're burned for me and I used to be quite the fan.
  - B1FF_PSUVM 7y ago
    Same here. Never bought anything Sony again. I also remember the poor kid who had a portable CD player almost red hot trying to play the Columbia/Sony music CD he had bought - riddled with purposeful errors to avoid PC copies. Making war on customers, indeed ...
  - 7y ago

starky 7y ago

Agreed, I know that personally I would like a camera that offered me both paradigms depending on the scenario. Not having used or looked into it much at all, something like the Hasselblad X1D seems to tread that line between dial control and a touchscreen interface in a way that is much closer to what I'm thinking. What I would really like to see from a camera is the ability to take a photo, say when travelling, and having it automatically end up on your phone with computational imaging already applied. Then with a tap, be able to pull the RAW for more in depth processing if required. I know that I do most of my processing in DxO Photolab precisely because it takes a guess at the editing for a photo before I even touch it, and therefore I spend less time post processing.

coldtea 7y ago

>This user wants all the control, all of the time: they've invested time and effort into nailing exposure, mastering autofocus, all while composing beautiful shots. A smartphone interface is not what you want: the best images are often captured in difficult environments where a touchscreen just gets in the way and you must have hard control points. You'd be surprised. Enthusiast users clamor for good autofocus, want automatic HDR and bracketing, and lots of other things...

cthalupa 7y ago
I've got some complaints when it comes to my a7r 3s interface, and I assume the 4 hasn't changed much, so I'm probably in the group you're talking about, but... Having better autofocus, automatic HDR and bracketing, etc., to me, has nothing to do with having a smartphone like interface or computational photography. I do want those things (or, kind of - I want better autofocus across the board, and I want the option of automatic hdr and bracketing) but I don't want an iPhone or Android style camera interface. That's damn near the opposite of what I want.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >I've got some complaints when it comes to my a7r 3s interface, and I assume the 4 hasn't changed much, so I'm probably in the group you're talking about, but... A7R III is already another crowd, there are tons of people like simpler DSLR (e.g. Nikon D3500), simpler mirroless (e.g. Olympus PEN) and compacts (tons of models). Those could all use a "smartphone like interface" and "computational photography". Now, for more hardcore enthusiasts: >I do want those things (or, kind of - I want better autofocus across the board, and I want the option of automatic hdr and bracketing) but I don't want an iPhone or Android style camera interface. Well, I'm a pro photographer (or have been, more into dev now, with a side of video), but I absolutely could use all that things. Though by iPhone or Android camera interface I don't mean seeing the same thing in your mirrorless screen. I mean more like the ability to download/write apps, advanced functionality made simple, things to automatically update/sync/post images, etc. Think more like Magic Lantern -- and the ability to write or download stuff like that with an official API.

dredmorbius 7y ago

Tyranny of the Minimum Viable User. My treatment largely focuses on software, but if you consider SW a mechanism for delivering interface and output, it applies to a physical + controls system such as cameras. Previous iterations of this phenomenon include audio equipment and bicycles. https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyranny_of_the_minimum_viable_user/ https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/69wk8y/the_tyr...