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For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks. OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative asp

For the sibling comments who are eager to change their minds (literally): Please note that there are also risks. OP and proverbialbunny talk about negative aspects that you should be aware of (especially because it sounds like some of you reach out to this with great desire). Messing with the void without proper understanding is dangerous. [1]: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-powerful-mental-tool-and-for-some-it-goes-terribly-wrong https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbaedd/meditation-is-a-po...

kranner 7y ago
Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering.
- mockingbirdy 7y ago
  Yes, the same process on the path to enlightenment that makes you become aware of your no-self is the same that most people in this article suffer with. That's the reason I gave this warning: Most people don't want enlightenment, they just want a "life hack" ("change your mood to calmness and joy with these 5 simple steps"). I don't see a problem with this, but I see the possibility of enduring pain in these people. The path to enlightenment is a commitment only a few are willing to make - it is the most painful of all ways, but it's also the only one (for some - only those have a chance of bearing the pain). well, you know, that's just like, my opinion, man. The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles.
  - kranner 7y ago
    It may turn out we're rather attached to those circles.
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    > The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles. In my case, the search did not stop, the circles just found new dimension. The rest of your truth is perfectly truthful. :-)
- spicymaki 7y ago
  >Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Probably. However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. >Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Yes, the Buddhist path[1] is supposed to lead to the end of suffering and rebirth. Clinging and craving produces karma which leads to rebirth. Stopping karma will lead to the cessation of suffering or nirvana. >it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering. No, it is not possible[2] for a householder to attain enlightenment. As a householder you have responsibilities (house, family, work) which inherently leads to clinging. However as a householder you can improve your chances at a good rebirth through merit (good karma). The best a householder can attain is stream entry. Monastics offload the dirty work of human survival (food, protection, etc) to householders in return for merit (virtuous cycle). You have to don the robes to cross the stream. [1] The Noble Eightfold Path [2] In traditional Buddhism
  - kranner 7y ago
    > However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. Maybe 'the practice' (as practiced by people in the Vice article) is incomplete, in the sense of lacking a better understanding of things to expect, companion meditators, ethical guidelines (Sila), and a more experienced teacher to help one understand what one is going through mentally. > No, it is not possible for a householder to attain enlightenment. I think this is incorrect. The Pali Canon mentions at least a few lay Arahants and many lay once-returners and non-returners (so beyond the stage of stream-entry). [1] I should mention that I'm not Buddhist and don't really believe in rebirth, karma, enlightenment literally. However I do believe at least karma and enlightenment can be stripped down to psychological processes and states, and I don't see a reason why a dedicated and talented householder can't achieve the psychological equivalent of enlightenment. [1] https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Lay_arahant https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Lay_arahant
    - spicymaki 7y ago

kranner 7y ago

Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Maybe the problem is that the current common understanding of Buddhist enlightenment is incorrect: it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering.

mockingbirdy 7y ago
Yes, the same process on the path to enlightenment that makes you become aware of your no-self is the same that most people in this article suffer with. That's the reason I gave this warning: Most people don't want enlightenment, they just want a "life hack" ("change your mood to calmness and joy with these 5 simple steps"). I don't see a problem with this, but I see the possibility of enduring pain in these people. The path to enlightenment is a commitment only a few are willing to make - it is the most painful of all ways, but it's also the only one (for some - only those have a chance of bearing the pain). well, you know, that's just like, my opinion, man. The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles.
- kranner 7y ago
  It may turn out we're rather attached to those circles.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  > The search ends when the seeker stops to seek. And realizes that he did nothing else, than to spin in circles. In my case, the search did not stop, the circles just found new dimension. The rest of your truth is perfectly truthful. :-)
spicymaki 7y ago
>Wouldn't that make these so-called negative effects an expected outcome of the process? Probably. However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. >Isn't the Buddhist path supposed to lead to the end of aversion _and_ craving (or desire or attachment)? Yes, the Buddhist path[1] is supposed to lead to the end of suffering and rebirth. Clinging and craving produces karma which leads to rebirth. Stopping karma will lead to the cessation of suffering or nirvana. >it has been sold as a panacea for everyone, including "householders", that we can just drop into our lives and continue on our former paths with the added bonus of the end of suffering. No, it is not possible[2] for a householder to attain enlightenment. As a householder you have responsibilities (house, family, work) which inherently leads to clinging. However as a householder you can improve your chances at a good rebirth through merit (good karma). The best a householder can attain is stream entry. Monastics offload the dirty work of human survival (food, protection, etc) to householders in return for merit (virtuous cycle). You have to don the robes to cross the stream. [1] The Noble Eightfold Path [2] In traditional Buddhism
- kranner 7y ago
  > However I would guess if the negative effects are chronic then there is something wrong with the practice. Maybe 'the practice' (as practiced by people in the Vice article) is incomplete, in the sense of lacking a better understanding of things to expect, companion meditators, ethical guidelines (Sila), and a more experienced teacher to help one understand what one is going through mentally. > No, it is not possible for a householder to attain enlightenment. I think this is incorrect. The Pali Canon mentions at least a few lay Arahants and many lay once-returners and non-returners (so beyond the stage of stream-entry). [1] I should mention that I'm not Buddhist and don't really believe in rebirth, karma, enlightenment literally. However I do believe at least karma and enlightenment can be stripped down to psychological processes and states, and I don't see a reason why a dedicated and talented householder can't achieve the psychological equivalent of enlightenment. [1] https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Lay_arahant https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Lay_arahant
  - spicymaki 7y ago