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I still live in Germany and I can echo your concerns. The majority of society has zero interest in doing military service, no respect for people serving in the

I still live in Germany and I can echo your concerns. The majority of society has zero interest in doing military service, no respect for people serving in the military at best, to downright hostility at worst, as urban myths and clichés (like that the Bundeswehr is just for racist nutjobs) go largely unchallenged (it is by far and large more ethnically diverse than say most IT departments). Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a good thing that we aren’t a militarist country. But the reason for us being able to afford this kind of luxury is US protection. And thus it doesn’t matter how much some Germans are annoyed with the US, this social shunning of military service is not going anywhere. You get what you pay for. Or not...

Ididntdothis 7y ago
I remember when the war in Yugoslavia went on. This was clearly a European thing but in the end it was the Americans that did the dirty work while the Europeans did a lot of talking but no action.
- progre 7y ago
  Every NATO member plus a whole bunch more was involved in that.
  - sinkelfink 7y ago
    The Americans did the heavy lifting, as usual.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    Only after the US went first.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      Accurate. Much like how Sarkozy really wanted to bomb Libya but nothing actually happened until Hilary and Obama decided to do it.
      - pnako 7y ago
        French people were opposed to that idiotic intervention, just like the ones in Iraq and Syria. Sarkozy was not re-elected (for this and many other reasons).
- sinkelfink 7y ago
  Instead of rescuing the oppressed people, European troops had tea with the genocidaires and then evacuated, leaving people to be slaughtered. And the moment the US dragged NATO into intervening? What did Europeans do? Immediate protests denouncing US fascism, US militarism, books not bombs, you name it.
- pnako 7y ago
  So what do you deduct from that fact? "We bombed the hell out of Vietnam while the surrounding countries did nothing!"
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    I deduce that even when a country commits atrocities in Europe European nations won’t do anything on their own. Or let’s say Russia invaded Poland they wouldn’t do anything either.
    - pnako 7y ago
      Your deduction is correct. Another more recent example is when America destabilized Ukraine. Predictably, we had no interest in that business either.
freeflight 7y ago
> as urban myths and clichés (like that the Bundeswehr is just for racist nutjobs Is it really clichés when there's plenty of evidence for it? Remember that "neo-Nazi doomsday prepper group" from June [0]? Those guys turned out largely to be police and soldiers. It's reached a point where the Bundeswehr considers discharging the soldiers who blow the whistle on the problem [1], instead of having to admit having one. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazi-doomsday-prepper-network-ordered-body-bags-made-kill-lists/a-49410494 https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazi-doomsday-prepper-netwo... [1] https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-05/rechtsextremismus-bundeswehr-soldat-meldung-kameraden-entlassung https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-05/recht...
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Indeed, I’m sure it would be impossible to find 20 hours of footage of Members of the Left or the Greens saying racist things. Certainly it would be beyond the bounds of possibility to find a group of German IT professionals being incredibly racist. That could never happen. /s
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    > Indeed, I’m sure it would be impossible to find 20 hours of footage of Members of the Left or the Greens saying racist things That's a whole other category than people hoarding weapons for some "day X", or members of the police equating police having to identify themselves (not by name, with a number) to citizens with Jews having to wear a yellow star [0], and dozens of other things, is just not even remotely in the same ballpark than "members of the Left" saying racist things. If one belittles the issue of Nazi networks in Germany going back to the 1940s, still murdering, with all the weird stuff happening to witnesses, all the failures to investigate -- that's orders of magnitude worse than a racist slur, to anyone who knows and cares about the actual situation. Back to the military though, remember Horst Köhler resigning for basically quoting from the manual of the Bundeswehr? [1] > a country of our size needs to be aware that where called for or in an emergency, military deployment, too, is necessary if we are to protect our interests such as ensuring free trade routes or preventing regional instabilities which are also certain to negatively impact our ability to safeguard trade, jobs and income. The relevant Bundeswehr document at that time, from 2006: https://www.bundeswehr.de/resource/resource/MzEzNTM4MmUzMzMyMmUzMTM1MzMyZTM2MzEzMDMwMzAzMDMwMzAzMDY3NmE2ODY1NmQ2NzY4MzEyMDIwMjAyMDIw/WB_2006_dt_mB.pdf https://www.bundeswehr.de/resource/resource/MzEzNTM4MmUzMzMy... > Deutschland, dessen wirtschaftlicher Wohlstand vom Zugang zu Rohstoffen, Waren und Ideen abhängt, hat ein elementares Interesse an einem friedlichen Wettbewerb der Gedanken, an einem offenen Welthandelssystem und freien Transportwegen. which translates to > Germany, whose economic prosperity depends on access to raw materials, goods and ideas, has a fundamental interest in a peaceful competition of ideas, an open world trade system and free transport routes. So basically, the German president had to leave for openly stating what is official doctrine, and people pretended that it isn't. I wonder what would happen to a little grunt who saw or said the wrong things, or said too plainly what the naked emperor support crowd covers up in bloated, dishonest language. [0] https://twitter.com/vonDobrowolski/status/1178323430074130435/photo/1 https://twitter.com/vonDobrowolski/status/117832343007413043... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_K%C3%B6hler#Resignation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_K%C3%B6hler#Resignation

Ididntdothis 7y ago

I remember when the war in Yugoslavia went on. This was clearly a European thing but in the end it was the Americans that did the dirty work while the Europeans did a lot of talking but no action.

progre 7y ago
Every NATO member plus a whole bunch more was involved in that.
- sinkelfink 7y ago
  The Americans did the heavy lifting, as usual.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  Only after the US went first.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    Accurate. Much like how Sarkozy really wanted to bomb Libya but nothing actually happened until Hilary and Obama decided to do it.
    - pnako 7y ago
      French people were opposed to that idiotic intervention, just like the ones in Iraq and Syria. Sarkozy was not re-elected (for this and many other reasons).
sinkelfink 7y ago
Instead of rescuing the oppressed people, European troops had tea with the genocidaires and then evacuated, leaving people to be slaughtered. And the moment the US dragged NATO into intervening? What did Europeans do? Immediate protests denouncing US fascism, US militarism, books not bombs, you name it.
pnako 7y ago
So what do you deduct from that fact? "We bombed the hell out of Vietnam while the surrounding countries did nothing!"
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  I deduce that even when a country commits atrocities in Europe European nations won’t do anything on their own. Or let’s say Russia invaded Poland they wouldn’t do anything either.
  - pnako 7y ago
    Your deduction is correct. Another more recent example is when America destabilized Ukraine. Predictably, we had no interest in that business either.

freeflight 7y ago

> as urban myths and clichés (like that the Bundeswehr is just for racist nutjobs Is it really clichés when there's plenty of evidence for it? Remember that "neo-Nazi doomsday prepper group" from June [0]? Those guys turned out largely to be police and soldiers. It's reached a point where the Bundeswehr considers discharging the soldiers who blow the whistle on the problem [1], instead of having to admit having one. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazi-doomsday-prepper-network-ordered-body-bags-made-kill-lists/a-49410494 https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazi-doomsday-prepper-netwo... [1] https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-05/rechtsextremismus-bundeswehr-soldat-meldung-kameraden-entlassung https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2019-05/recht...

barry-cotter 7y ago
Indeed, I’m sure it would be impossible to find 20 hours of footage of Members of the Left or the Greens saying racist things. Certainly it would be beyond the bounds of possibility to find a group of German IT professionals being incredibly racist. That could never happen. /s
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  > Indeed, I’m sure it would be impossible to find 20 hours of footage of Members of the Left or the Greens saying racist things That's a whole other category than people hoarding weapons for some "day X", or members of the police equating police having to identify themselves (not by name, with a number) to citizens with Jews having to wear a yellow star [0], and dozens of other things, is just not even remotely in the same ballpark than "members of the Left" saying racist things. If one belittles the issue of Nazi networks in Germany going back to the 1940s, still murdering, with all the weird stuff happening to witnesses, all the failures to investigate -- that's orders of magnitude worse than a racist slur, to anyone who knows and cares about the actual situation. Back to the military though, remember Horst Köhler resigning for basically quoting from the manual of the Bundeswehr? [1] > a country of our size needs to be aware that where called for or in an emergency, military deployment, too, is necessary if we are to protect our interests such as ensuring free trade routes or preventing regional instabilities which are also certain to negatively impact our ability to safeguard trade, jobs and income. The relevant Bundeswehr document at that time, from 2006: https://www.bundeswehr.de/resource/resource/MzEzNTM4MmUzMzMyMmUzMTM1MzMyZTM2MzEzMDMwMzAzMDMwMzAzMDY3NmE2ODY1NmQ2NzY4MzEyMDIwMjAyMDIw/WB_2006_dt_mB.pdf https://www.bundeswehr.de/resource/resource/MzEzNTM4MmUzMzMy... > Deutschland, dessen wirtschaftlicher Wohlstand vom Zugang zu Rohstoffen, Waren und Ideen abhängt, hat ein elementares Interesse an einem friedlichen Wettbewerb der Gedanken, an einem offenen Welthandelssystem und freien Transportwegen. which translates to > Germany, whose economic prosperity depends on access to raw materials, goods and ideas, has a fundamental interest in a peaceful competition of ideas, an open world trade system and free transport routes. So basically, the German president had to leave for openly stating what is official doctrine, and people pretended that it isn't. I wonder what would happen to a little grunt who saw or said the wrong things, or said too plainly what the naked emperor support crowd covers up in bloated, dishonest language. [0] https://twitter.com/vonDobrowolski/status/1178323430074130435/photo/1 https://twitter.com/vonDobrowolski/status/117832343007413043... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_K%C3%B6hler#Resignation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_K%C3%B6hler#Resignation