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For me, I primarily think about stability: Python/Go/JS/C -> runtime crashes due to type errors and/or data races Rust -> no runtime crashes due to type error

For me, I primarily think about stability: Python/Go/JS/C -> runtime crashes due to type errors and/or data races Rust -> no runtime crashes due to type errors/data races

makapuf 7y ago
Why would go and c which have static typing suffer from type errors ? Why would go that has a data race checker and quite good concurrency primitives be more prone that rust ? Rust seems to have its merits but I find the parent post more level headed in that it tries to characterize language runtime, admittedly subjectively but not in a rust==good, rest==bad way.
- brobinson 7y ago
  You can easily cause a C/Go program to crash/abort due to runtime type errors. If you've written C, you've miscast something at some point. Go in particular relies extremely heavily on runtime reflection. Both languages have poor type systems. Go's race detector is useful and we've caught bugs using it, but it's nicer when the compiler prevents you from having those bugs in the first place. >quite good concurrency primitives That's gonna be a "yikes" from me, dog: https://www.jtolio.com/2016/03/go-channels-are-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad/ https://www.jtolio.com/2016/03/go-channels-are-bad-and-you-s... I'm not a Rust fanboy, I simply like languages where it's more difficult to represent invalid state (Haskell, Ocaml, Rust, etc.) than in the mainstream languages I suffer with in my job on a daily basis. Rust happens to have great tooling and is the most likely to make inroads on these issues I care about (runtime stability + code correctness via good type system).
  - weberc2 7y ago
    Go doesn’t rely heavily on runtime reflection. Putting it in the same category as C or JS is disingenuous. Rust has a great static type system, but I’ve never seen a Go program fail on a runtime/reflection type error before.
    - brobinson 7y ago
      I'm not sure what to say. Go code (stdlib, popular libraries, etc.) uses runtime reflection _everywhere_. I've been using Go since 1.2 and I've seen too many runtime crashes due to type errors to count.
      - weberc2 7y ago
        It is used for things like printf and JSON marshaling. I’ve been using Go regularly since 2012 and this isn’t a real problem. The reflection in the standard lib and popular third party libs (and most unpopular third party libs for that matter) is rock solid. Moreover, reflection probably accounts for less than 1% of Go code—not sure where you’re getting “everywhere” from. So I guess I’m calling your bluff.
        brobinson 7y ago
        Even if your claim of "probably ... less than 1% of Go code" is accurate, appearing somewhat less often than 1 out of every 100 lines of code is _everywhere_ to me...
        weberc2 7y ago
        To be clear, I didn't say "less than 1 out of every 100 lines", but in any case I don't consider yours to be a reasonable definition of "everywhere". Especially since such a low frequency doesn't support your claim that "you see runtime type errors too many times to count". Perhaps you're using libraries that are far, far below the ecosystem's average quality?
h91wka 7y ago
Gosh, Rust evangelists did a really good job brainwashing the community. Take a look at big Rust projects that do anything useful, like Tokyo. You'll find dozens of unsafe blocks everywhere, so much for static analysis. True, in the most simple cases linear types will slap you on the wrist, but most bugs happen in the complex parts of code anyways.
- brobinson 7y ago
  I'm not part of the Rust "community" and don't participate in any of its fora, I just like a lot of the ideas it's pushing forward (see sibling comment). "unsafe" doesn't dIsAbLe AlL pRoTeCtIoNs like the anti-Rust crowd likes to say. I've written a few small (5,000+ LOC) programs in Rust over the last five years or so and I've only personally had to dip into unsafe once in my own code. I didn't claim that Rust prevents all bugs, I pointed out that Rust programs are more stable in the case of _runtime type errors and data races_ (which they are).
- iopq 7y ago
  You're talking about a library that is forming the base of multithreaded applications. 99% of other libraries don't have nearly as much unsafe

For me, I primarily think about stability: Python/Go/JS/C -> runtime crashes due to type errors and/or data races Rust -> no runtime crashes due to type errors/data races

makapuf 7y ago

Why would go and c which have static typing suffer from type errors ? Why would go that has a data race checker and quite good concurrency primitives be more prone that rust ? Rust seems to have its merits but I find the parent post more level headed in that it tries to characterize language runtime, admittedly subjectively but not in a rust==good, rest==bad way.

brobinson 7y ago
You can easily cause a C/Go program to crash/abort due to runtime type errors. If you've written C, you've miscast something at some point. Go in particular relies extremely heavily on runtime reflection. Both languages have poor type systems. Go's race detector is useful and we've caught bugs using it, but it's nicer when the compiler prevents you from having those bugs in the first place. >quite good concurrency primitives That's gonna be a "yikes" from me, dog: https://www.jtolio.com/2016/03/go-channels-are-bad-and-you-should-feel-bad/ https://www.jtolio.com/2016/03/go-channels-are-bad-and-you-s... I'm not a Rust fanboy, I simply like languages where it's more difficult to represent invalid state (Haskell, Ocaml, Rust, etc.) than in the mainstream languages I suffer with in my job on a daily basis. Rust happens to have great tooling and is the most likely to make inroads on these issues I care about (runtime stability + code correctness via good type system).
- weberc2 7y ago
  Go doesn’t rely heavily on runtime reflection. Putting it in the same category as C or JS is disingenuous. Rust has a great static type system, but I’ve never seen a Go program fail on a runtime/reflection type error before.
  - brobinson 7y ago
    I'm not sure what to say. Go code (stdlib, popular libraries, etc.) uses runtime reflection _everywhere_. I've been using Go since 1.2 and I've seen too many runtime crashes due to type errors to count.
    - weberc2 7y ago
      It is used for things like printf and JSON marshaling. I’ve been using Go regularly since 2012 and this isn’t a real problem. The reflection in the standard lib and popular third party libs (and most unpopular third party libs for that matter) is rock solid. Moreover, reflection probably accounts for less than 1% of Go code—not sure where you’re getting “everywhere” from. So I guess I’m calling your bluff.
      - brobinson 7y ago
        Even if your claim of "probably ... less than 1% of Go code" is accurate, appearing somewhat less often than 1 out of every 100 lines of code is _everywhere_ to me...
        weberc2 7y ago
        To be clear, I didn't say "less than 1 out of every 100 lines", but in any case I don't consider yours to be a reasonable definition of "everywhere". Especially since such a low frequency doesn't support your claim that "you see runtime type errors too many times to count". Perhaps you're using libraries that are far, far below the ecosystem's average quality?

h91wka 7y ago

Gosh, Rust evangelists did a really good job brainwashing the community. Take a look at big Rust projects that do anything useful, like Tokyo. You'll find dozens of unsafe blocks everywhere, so much for static analysis. True, in the most simple cases linear types will slap you on the wrist, but most bugs happen in the complex parts of code anyways.

brobinson 7y ago
I'm not part of the Rust "community" and don't participate in any of its fora, I just like a lot of the ideas it's pushing forward (see sibling comment). "unsafe" doesn't dIsAbLe AlL pRoTeCtIoNs like the anti-Rust crowd likes to say. I've written a few small (5,000+ LOC) programs in Rust over the last five years or so and I've only personally had to dip into unsafe once in my own code. I didn't claim that Rust prevents all bugs, I pointed out that Rust programs are more stable in the case of _runtime type errors and data races_ (which they are).
iopq 7y ago
You're talking about a library that is forming the base of multithreaded applications. 99% of other libraries don't have nearly as much unsafe