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I am an American-born man of Western European descent. My girlfriend is a Chinese passport holder here on H1B. I am an anarchist. I absolutely do not understan

I am an American-born man of Western European descent. My girlfriend is a Chinese passport holder here on H1B. I am an anarchist. I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. Literally everything has flaws, and Western Europe and USA have plenty of them. If you are not willing to say "China does xyz but actually also my country does something similar to xyz too, and it's definitely bad"... ...then at the very least, please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals are 100% true for every individual. Humans are humans, they differ in meaningful ways but they also deserve dignity and respect.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. > please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals I think it's misleading to bring up the Chinese people in this way: the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. The real or imagined influence of the CCP over Chinese companies is causing the latter to be viewed with greater suspicion. The Chinese people/Chinese nationals as a group aren't being viewed as antagonists (though unfortunate abbreviations like using "the Chinese" for "the Chinese government" do confuse things sometimes). If anything, I'd bet most people who are critical of the CPP, etc. would see the Chinese people sympathetically as closer to victims than anything else.
- quaquaqua1 7y ago
  I agree that the Chinese people are victims of their government. Why then is there no outrage that Americans are the victim of their own government as well? If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government, then we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps, as if apps should even have a nationality in the first place.
  - aianus 7y ago
    > we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps If someone punches you (bans your apps, bans your companies from operating and acquiring companies in their country) and you then punch them back (ban their companies from acquiring companies in your country) you are not the same as them. The order matters and they started it.
    - quaquaqua1 7y ago
      What you are saying is that if I punch your child, you should punch mine back as the proper response. There is no need to harm the second child-- you have to deal solely with the person who threw the first punch in a legal, rational, and fair way.
      - crematoria 7y ago
        The problem is that the Chinese government has almost total control over Chinese apps, so American citizens are rightly afraid that Chinese apps might serve as vehicles of Chinese government propaganda. It's totally okay for both America and China to ban whatever foreign stuff they want, though, and both of them have very good reasons to do so.
        quaquaqua1 7y ago
        >Chinese government has total almost total control over Chinese apps I agree. But watch what happens when you post something bad about an influential person on an American app. The feds pay attention to you more and lean harder on you. The end outcome is the same. >Ban foreign content How can we live in a world where it's ok for any government to decide what you can and can't see
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > Why then is there no outrage that Americans are the victim of their own government as well? What makes you think there isn't? There's outrage about that kind of thing all the time. > If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government Where in the article does it say that TikTok could be banned in the US? > If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government, then we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps, as if apps should even have a nationality in the first place. Honestly, I believe you're kinda confused and looking at things too shallowly. Sort of like insisting we condemn someone who killed defending a child from murder the same as we'd condemn someone who committed murder, because they both killed a human being. Identical actions can be rightly judged very differently based on circumstances. The PRC bans American apps because (among other things) its authoritarian ruling oligarchy fears that Western ideas like constitutional democracy and human rights could threaten their power, if taken up by the Chinese people. If the US bans Chinese apps (or disinformation outlets like Russia Today), it will likely be because it values those same ideas and fears losing them.
- yorwba 7y ago
  > the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. You may only hate the government, but you should be aware that many of those who seem to be on your side criticising the CPC do in fact hate everything Chinese. They think that not only the government, but all Chinese people are untrustworthy; that all Chinese companies are mere fronts for the government that should not be allowed to operate abroad; that Chinese people should be banned from Twitter/Facebook/Wikipedia/GitHub because they're brainwashed anyway and their viewpoints therefore invalid; and that their livelihoods don't matter because they stole American jobs. I don't think a majority thinks like that, but these viewpoints are certainly present on HN. (Not as strong in this thread, but enough to be noticable in general.) So when someone complains about hate for China, don't think they mean your opinions, but be aware that the complaint is quite justified.
  - quaquaqua1 7y ago
    1,000,000 times this. Anyone who thinks there is not a generic "anti PROC" sentiment is forgetting what it was like to be an American in 2003 when every European personally told you how bad you were for allowing Bush to exist
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    >> the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. > You may only hate the government... Hate is actually not a very good word to describe the situation, IMHO. I only used it because the GP did, but I quoted and questioned the choice. If I had to describe it, I would say it's moral disapproval coupled with a recognition of incompatible goals that requires some kind of response. > You may only hate the government, but you should be aware that many of those who seem to be on your side criticising the CPC do in fact hate everything Chinese. I find that a bit hard to square with the support of Chinese things by the same group, like the Tiananmen Square and Hong Kong protests (for instance). I don't doubt that there exist people who are racist against Chinese people, but I think the overlap with HN is small, and definitely small enough that it's a derail to bring up on a vague prompt like in the parent of this subthread.
    - 7y ago
mustacheemperor 7y ago
This line of discussion seems a bit off the topic of the thread, but I want to respond to you. Based on your last paragraph, it seems to me like it should be pretty clear why there is so much hate for the Chinese government and the companies that act as agents for Chinese government censorship and oppression policies. There are many Chinese nationals suffering and dying in concentration camps _right now_. Am I obliged to engage in whataboutism just to hold the opinion that example and other human rights atrocities are sufficient reason to reject cooperation with the Chinese regime, or the opinion that domestic companies should not become active agents of the the regime’s censorship objectives to do business there? Your comment seems to conflate all of that criticism with “hate for Chinese people,” which seems unfair and disingenuous since I and presumably many people opposed to the CCCP feel that way because of the fate of all the people currently in China’s borders and subjugated by the regime.
- quaquaqua1 7y ago
  I do not deny any of the claims you have made about concentration camps, human rights abuses, corporate interests etc. But I would really like to understand why there is a double standard in the minds of "my fellow Westerners". Boeing, Raytheon, Booz Allen Hamilton, Halliburton, Lockheed, and the whole Washington aparatus in general have been (in)directly responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people in the Middle East, yet I am still happy to use Instagram and Whatsapp and Youtube. Similarly I will use TikTok concurrently while understanding that the Chinese government has locked 1 million Uighurs in a concentration camp. Surely, not every Chinese citizen voted for this idea. So we shouldn't make assumptions about what "Chinese people" are like
  - CharlesColeman 7y ago
    > So we shouldn't make assumptions about what "Chinese people" are like Again, no one is condemning the Chinese people here.
  - crematoria 7y ago
    Nobody is stereotyping the Chinese people! Google and Apple have publicly stood up against the US government, and the US doesn't (publicly and legally, at least) meddle with companies to anywhere near the same extent as China. When I support Google, I support Google alone, but when I support Tencent, it feels a little like I'm supporting the Chinese government, too.
hart_russell 7y ago
Easy, there's a double standard here: Chinese companies can buy US companies but not the other way around.
- throwawayXDGT 7y ago
  this is a patent lie repeated too many times. here are some cases i just googled. 2004 Amazon bought chinese company Joyo Amazon buys into Chinese market https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-buys-into-chinese-market/ https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-buys-into-chinese-market/ 2015 3D Systems bought chinese company Easywa 3D Systems buys Chinese company https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/outside_the_loop/2015/04/3d-systems-buys-chinese-company-forms-asian-unit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/outside_the_loop/... 2018 Xilinx bought chinese company DeePhi Xilinx Buys China AI Startup https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333482# https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333482#

CharlesColeman 7y ago

> I absolutely do not understand why there is so much hate for Chinese people, Chinese companies, or the Chinese government. > please do not act as if your statements about Chinese nationals I think it's misleading to bring up the Chinese people in this way: the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. The real or imagined influence of the CCP over Chinese companies is causing the latter to be viewed with greater suspicion. The Chinese people/Chinese nationals as a group aren't being viewed as antagonists (though unfortunate abbreviations like using "the Chinese" for "the Chinese government" do confuse things sometimes). If anything, I'd bet most people who are critical of the CPP, etc. would see the Chinese people sympathetically as closer to victims than anything else.

quaquaqua1 7y ago
I agree that the Chinese people are victims of their government. Why then is there no outrage that Americans are the victim of their own government as well? If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government, then we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps, as if apps should even have a nationality in the first place.
- aianus 7y ago
  > we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps If someone punches you (bans your apps, bans your companies from operating and acquiring companies in their country) and you then punch them back (ban their companies from acquiring companies in your country) you are not the same as them. The order matters and they started it.
  - quaquaqua1 7y ago
    What you are saying is that if I punch your child, you should punch mine back as the proper response. There is no need to harm the second child-- you have to deal solely with the person who threw the first punch in a legal, rational, and fair way.
    - crematoria 7y ago
      The problem is that the Chinese government has almost total control over Chinese apps, so American citizens are rightly afraid that Chinese apps might serve as vehicles of Chinese government propaganda. It's totally okay for both America and China to ban whatever foreign stuff they want, though, and both of them have very good reasons to do so.
      - quaquaqua1 7y ago
        >Chinese government has total almost total control over Chinese apps I agree. But watch what happens when you post something bad about an influential person on an American app. The feds pay attention to you more and lean harder on you. The end outcome is the same. >Ban foreign content How can we live in a world where it's ok for any government to decide what you can and can't see
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > Why then is there no outrage that Americans are the victim of their own government as well? What makes you think there isn't? There's outrage about that kind of thing all the time. > If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government Where in the article does it say that TikTok could be banned in the US? > If TikTok is banned by the US because of the actions of the Chinese government, then we are no better than the Chinese government who have banned countless "American" apps, as if apps should even have a nationality in the first place. Honestly, I believe you're kinda confused and looking at things too shallowly. Sort of like insisting we condemn someone who killed defending a child from murder the same as we'd condemn someone who committed murder, because they both killed a human being. Identical actions can be rightly judged very differently based on circumstances. The PRC bans American apps because (among other things) its authoritarian ruling oligarchy fears that Western ideas like constitutional democracy and human rights could threaten their power, if taken up by the Chinese people. If the US bans Chinese apps (or disinformation outlets like Russia Today), it will likely be because it values those same ideas and fears losing them.
yorwba 7y ago
> the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. You may only hate the government, but you should be aware that many of those who seem to be on your side criticising the CPC do in fact hate everything Chinese. They think that not only the government, but all Chinese people are untrustworthy; that all Chinese companies are mere fronts for the government that should not be allowed to operate abroad; that Chinese people should be banned from Twitter/Facebook/Wikipedia/GitHub because they're brainwashed anyway and their viewpoints therefore invalid; and that their livelihoods don't matter because they stole American jobs. I don't think a majority thinks like that, but these viewpoints are certainly present on HN. (Not as strong in this thread, but enough to be noticable in general.) So when someone complains about hate for China, don't think they mean your opinions, but be aware that the complaint is quite justified.
- quaquaqua1 7y ago
  1,000,000 times this. Anyone who thinks there is not a generic "anti PROC" sentiment is forgetting what it was like to be an American in 2003 when every European personally told you how bad you were for allowing Bush to exist
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  >> the "hate," if it can even be called that, is for the Chinese government and the CCP. > You may only hate the government... Hate is actually not a very good word to describe the situation, IMHO. I only used it because the GP did, but I quoted and questioned the choice. If I had to describe it, I would say it's moral disapproval coupled with a recognition of incompatible goals that requires some kind of response. > You may only hate the government, but you should be aware that many of those who seem to be on your side criticising the CPC do in fact hate everything Chinese. I find that a bit hard to square with the support of Chinese things by the same group, like the Tiananmen Square and Hong Kong protests (for instance). I don't doubt that there exist people who are racist against Chinese people, but I think the overlap with HN is small, and definitely small enough that it's a derail to bring up on a vague prompt like in the parent of this subthread.
  - 7y ago

mustacheemperor 7y ago

This line of discussion seems a bit off the topic of the thread, but I want to respond to you. Based on your last paragraph, it seems to me like it should be pretty clear why there is so much hate for the Chinese government and the companies that act as agents for Chinese government censorship and oppression policies. There are many Chinese nationals suffering and dying in concentration camps _right now_. Am I obliged to engage in whataboutism just to hold the opinion that example and other human rights atrocities are sufficient reason to reject cooperation with the Chinese regime, or the opinion that domestic companies should not become active agents of the the regime’s censorship objectives to do business there? Your comment seems to conflate all of that criticism with “hate for Chinese people,” which seems unfair and disingenuous since I and presumably many people opposed to the CCCP feel that way because of the fate of all the people currently in China’s borders and subjugated by the regime.

quaquaqua1 7y ago
I do not deny any of the claims you have made about concentration camps, human rights abuses, corporate interests etc. But I would really like to understand why there is a double standard in the minds of "my fellow Westerners". Boeing, Raytheon, Booz Allen Hamilton, Halliburton, Lockheed, and the whole Washington aparatus in general have been (in)directly responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent people in the Middle East, yet I am still happy to use Instagram and Whatsapp and Youtube. Similarly I will use TikTok concurrently while understanding that the Chinese government has locked 1 million Uighurs in a concentration camp. Surely, not every Chinese citizen voted for this idea. So we shouldn't make assumptions about what "Chinese people" are like
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > So we shouldn't make assumptions about what "Chinese people" are like Again, no one is condemning the Chinese people here.
- crematoria 7y ago
  Nobody is stereotyping the Chinese people! Google and Apple have publicly stood up against the US government, and the US doesn't (publicly and legally, at least) meddle with companies to anywhere near the same extent as China. When I support Google, I support Google alone, but when I support Tencent, it feels a little like I'm supporting the Chinese government, too.

hart_russell 7y ago

Easy, there's a double standard here: Chinese companies can buy US companies but not the other way around.

throwawayXDGT 7y ago
this is a patent lie repeated too many times. here are some cases i just googled. 2004 Amazon bought chinese company Joyo Amazon buys into Chinese market https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-buys-into-chinese-market/ https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-buys-into-chinese-market/ 2015 3D Systems bought chinese company Easywa 3D Systems buys Chinese company https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/outside_the_loop/2015/04/3d-systems-buys-chinese-company-forms-asian-unit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/outside_the_loop/... 2018 Xilinx bought chinese company DeePhi Xilinx Buys China AI Startup https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333482# https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333482#