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Americans really need more vacation time. For a while I worked with only 15 days a year. This never gives you the opportunity to ever really relax. Life becomes

Americans really need more vacation time. For a while I worked with only 15 days a year. This never gives you the opportunity to ever really relax. Life becomes just one endless meaningless time of working year after year that kills any kind of creativity . I can see this in a lot of workaholics. They just go through the motions of working hard but don’t get much done. And once you have been in that machine for a while taking a little time off feels scary and unfamiliar.

mercutio2 7y ago
“Only” 15 vacation days? I’m not sure if you’re in the US, or if you’re including paid holidays, but 15 days is the average number of vacation days for people with 25 years of tenure in full time jobs in the US. Most people with less tenure get much less. So that wouldn’t be an “only” in the US. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm
- CalRobert 7y ago
  Indeed - this is a fantastic argument in favour of emigrating. It's also the cause of friction in multinationals operating in Europe - I was saddened when, upon starting at my "unlimited PTO" employer, they had an internal doc that this really meant "3-4 weeks" (note that 4 weeks is the legal minimum in the EU)
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  15 is “only” in most western countries. Actually in a lot of countries it would be illegal.
- benplumley 7y ago
  Something can be both average (relative to a population) and low (in an absolute sense). 15 days of holiday per year seems like a great example of this.
- throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
  I get 15 at low tenure. But if I got more I don’t think I would be able to find reasonable times to take it. My father became a C suite guy at a fairly large corp and by the end of his career had quite a lot of vacation days each year... but he could never find an opportunity to use half of it because he was accountable for far too much. I don’t really know if I find anything disagreeable in it tbh. Vacation can be nice but it’s necessity is a function of your baseline work life balance... and work life balance tends to be harder the worse your job is. An interesting paradox in that the people who probably need it most are the least entitled to it per societal norms.
- volkl48 7y ago
  Your general position that Americans often don't get a lot of vacation time by the norms of developed countries isn't wrong, but your choice of data is. That table is 23 years out of date, and it was only for employees at "small private establishments", which generally means <100 employees in BLS terminology. They generally provide less vacation time than the overall average of employers. --------- As of 2017, the average in the US is around 15 days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 20 days after 20 years. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/private-industry-workers-received-average-of-15-paid-vacation-days-after-5-years-of-service-in-2017.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/private-industry-workers-r... Approximately 90% of full time workers have paid holiday and vacation in some form. https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2017/ownership/private/table32a.htm https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2017/ownership/private/... -------- Also, to note the obvious: The norms for your average HN reader in terms of benefits are likely to be different (better) from the average person in society. I would consider 15 days to be an "only" in the part of the job market I am in.
  - mercutio2 7y ago
    I couldn’t figure out in what year my bls link was published; thanks for finding better data, 23 years old is terrible.
- enraged_camel 7y ago
  10 business days, which comes down to 14 days when you include weekends.
  - thfuran 7y ago
    What kind of BS counting is that? Unless you usually work weekends, not working on a weekend isn't a vacation.
    - enraged_camel 7y ago
      What I'm saying is that, here in the US, when people say things like "I get two weeks of PTO per year", they mean 10 business days, not 14.
rayiner 7y ago
If your premise were true, you'd expect countries offering more vacation time to have higher productivity per hour worked. (I.e. more efficiency, even if less total production.) Instead, the U.S. has among the highest levels of productivity per hour worked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP).... Americans are much more productive, even on a per-hour basis, than people in advanced democracies that have more vacation time.
- coryrc 7y ago
  People aren't reporting the actual hours they work.
- scottious 7y ago
  If I'm reading the Wikipedia article correctly, then Norway is outpacing the US and they have 25 days of vacation per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b... So it seems to me that there are a lot of confounding factors here. Do we actually know what causes GDP/hour to go up and down? It doesn't seem directly related to vacation time. It seems to me more like the Wikipedia article you linked to is saying "countries that give a lot of vacation to all citizens can still have a high GDP per hour worked" and we don't understand what other confounding factors can contribute to GDP/hour
  - pcwalton 7y ago
    Yeah, as another data point, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong are way below the US on the GDP-per-work-hour metric. Yet if you've ever been exposed to office life in any of them, you'd know that their work/life balance is far more tilted toward work than the US. You'll also notice that they have less per-hour GDP than countries with more statutorily mandated paid leave. I don't think we can really glean anything from this chart as to the effects that vacation time has on productivity.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  GDP is completely unrelated to how much effort people put into work, or on how good they are.
bonoboTP 7y ago
American professionals (say, in California) have several times less free time and earn several times more money than Western Europeans (say, Germans). Different cultures value different things.
- thedaemon 7y ago
  This is the point that previous commenters were missing. Culturally speaking, money is #1 in the USA but not in the rest of the world.
kwhat4 7y ago
> For a while I worked with only 15 days a year. Better than the 10 days I've been getting for the past 3 years.

mercutio2 7y ago

“Only” 15 vacation days? I’m not sure if you’re in the US, or if you’re including paid holidays, but 15 days is the average number of vacation days for people with 25 years of tenure in full time jobs in the US. Most people with less tenure get much less. So that wouldn’t be an “only” in the US. https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/ebs.t05.htm

CalRobert 7y ago
Indeed - this is a fantastic argument in favour of emigrating. It's also the cause of friction in multinationals operating in Europe - I was saddened when, upon starting at my "unlimited PTO" employer, they had an internal doc that this really meant "3-4 weeks" (note that 4 weeks is the legal minimum in the EU)
Ididntdothis 7y ago
15 is “only” in most western countries. Actually in a lot of countries it would be illegal.
benplumley 7y ago
Something can be both average (relative to a population) and low (in an absolute sense). 15 days of holiday per year seems like a great example of this.
throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
I get 15 at low tenure. But if I got more I don’t think I would be able to find reasonable times to take it. My father became a C suite guy at a fairly large corp and by the end of his career had quite a lot of vacation days each year... but he could never find an opportunity to use half of it because he was accountable for far too much. I don’t really know if I find anything disagreeable in it tbh. Vacation can be nice but it’s necessity is a function of your baseline work life balance... and work life balance tends to be harder the worse your job is. An interesting paradox in that the people who probably need it most are the least entitled to it per societal norms.
volkl48 7y ago
Your general position that Americans often don't get a lot of vacation time by the norms of developed countries isn't wrong, but your choice of data is. That table is 23 years out of date, and it was only for employees at "small private establishments", which generally means <100 employees in BLS terminology. They generally provide less vacation time than the overall average of employers. --------- As of 2017, the average in the US is around 15 days after 5 years, 17 days after 10 years, and 20 days after 20 years. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/private-industry-workers-received-average-of-15-paid-vacation-days-after-5-years-of-service-in-2017.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2018/private-industry-workers-r... Approximately 90% of full time workers have paid holiday and vacation in some form. https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2017/ownership/private/table32a.htm https://www.bls.gov/ncs/ebs/benefits/2017/ownership/private/... -------- Also, to note the obvious: The norms for your average HN reader in terms of benefits are likely to be different (better) from the average person in society. I would consider 15 days to be an "only" in the part of the job market I am in.
- mercutio2 7y ago
  I couldn’t figure out in what year my bls link was published; thanks for finding better data, 23 years old is terrible.
enraged_camel 7y ago
10 business days, which comes down to 14 days when you include weekends.
- thfuran 7y ago
  What kind of BS counting is that? Unless you usually work weekends, not working on a weekend isn't a vacation.
  - enraged_camel 7y ago
    What I'm saying is that, here in the US, when people say things like "I get two weeks of PTO per year", they mean 10 business days, not 14.

rayiner 7y ago

If your premise were true, you'd expect countries offering more vacation time to have higher productivity per hour worked. (I.e. more efficiency, even if less total production.) Instead, the U.S. has among the highest levels of productivity per hour worked: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_hour_worked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP).... Americans are much more productive, even on a per-hour basis, than people in advanced democracies that have more vacation time.

coryrc 7y ago
People aren't reporting the actual hours they work.
scottious 7y ago
If I'm reading the Wikipedia article correctly, then Norway is outpacing the US and they have 25 days of vacation per year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b... So it seems to me that there are a lot of confounding factors here. Do we actually know what causes GDP/hour to go up and down? It doesn't seem directly related to vacation time. It seems to me more like the Wikipedia article you linked to is saying "countries that give a lot of vacation to all citizens can still have a high GDP per hour worked" and we don't understand what other confounding factors can contribute to GDP/hour
- pcwalton 7y ago
  Yeah, as another data point, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong are way below the US on the GDP-per-work-hour metric. Yet if you've ever been exposed to office life in any of them, you'd know that their work/life balance is far more tilted toward work than the US. You'll also notice that they have less per-hour GDP than countries with more statutorily mandated paid leave. I don't think we can really glean anything from this chart as to the effects that vacation time has on productivity.
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
GDP is completely unrelated to how much effort people put into work, or on how good they are.

bonoboTP 7y ago

American professionals (say, in California) have several times less free time and earn several times more money than Western Europeans (say, Germans). Different cultures value different things.

thedaemon 7y ago
This is the point that previous commenters were missing. Culturally speaking, money is #1 in the USA but not in the rest of the world.

kwhat4 7y ago

> For a while I worked with only 15 days a year. Better than the 10 days I've been getting for the past 3 years.