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An interesting idea but the reason investors + creditors can get these is because they have leverage and can negotiate for them. They are not always able to sec

by lquist 7y ago

An interesting idea but the reason investors + creditors can get these is because they have leverage and can negotiate for them. They are not always able to secure them. Consumers currently have no such leverage. The best avenue to this kind of leverage is probably legal?

api_dolla 7y ago
We’re in a new era— these things need to be legislated.
wongarsu 7y ago
The leverage of the consumer is the government whose legislators they elected.
- lquist 7y ago
  Incorrect. That is an avenue of leverage. Currently driven more by corporate interests than citizen interests.
  - wongarsu 7y ago
    "democracy" literally means "rule by people" or "government by people". You are in effect claiming that America isn't a democracy (which may or may not be true, sometimes you look suspiciously like an aristocracy in disguise). Anyway, over here in continental Europe democracy mostly works. And when people complained about privacy issues for years and Facebook laughed in our faces we eventually got the GDPR. That's exactly the kind of "either get your shit together or we will legislate it" this thread is about.
    - troyastorino 7y ago
      America is not a democracy — it is a constitutional republic with democratic elements. America has democratic election of representatives, the the lawmaking is done by those representatives, not directly. California’s proposition system is an example of true direct democracy. The constitutional part is important too — it limits what people, and their representatives, can do even if they have a majority.
      - wongarsu 7y ago
        The house of representatives is directly elected, same with the senate. While the laws are not directly voted on by the people, they are indirectly voted on by the people by their choice of representative. After all if direct democracy was the only valid form of democracy it wouldn't need the qualifier "direct". The constitution is an important part of limiting abuse and channeling everything, it can be changed with a two-thirds majority. So the citizens can change the constitution by choosing representatives who want to do so, and we still have democracy. Similarly when electing the president people vote for a person who will vote for the president. While it is a weird system, in essence the leader is chosen by the people. Calling only direct democracy a democracy would be weird, by that standard a country pretty much can't be democratic for purely practical reasons (though Switzerland comes close)
        1000units 7y ago
        On the other hand, everything is a de facto democracy because revolution is always on the table. There's nothing wrong with being precise. In fact, it leads to fewer misunderstandings.
        Scarblac 7y ago
        The problem is that preciseness seems to be something that all US people know (is it taught in high school?) and nobody else. Systems where the government is voted for by the people are democratic regardless of the details.
      - nkozyra 7y ago
        > America is not a democracy — it is a constitutional republic with democratic elements. People like to say this all the time like it's clever, but being a republic does not preclude being democratic. The United States is a democracy.
        dragonwriter 7y ago
        > being a republic does not preclude being democratic. No, but the particular form of the US republic does so in practice. > The United States is a democracy. The United States may have been built around an idea of representative democracy, but in function it is more of a plutocratic republic with quasi-democratic rituals.

by lquist 7y ago

api_dolla 7y ago

We’re in a new era— these things need to be legislated.

wongarsu 7y ago

The leverage of the consumer is the government whose legislators they elected.

lquist 7y ago
Incorrect. That is an avenue of leverage. Currently driven more by corporate interests than citizen interests.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  "democracy" literally means "rule by people" or "government by people". You are in effect claiming that America isn't a democracy (which may or may not be true, sometimes you look suspiciously like an aristocracy in disguise). Anyway, over here in continental Europe democracy mostly works. And when people complained about privacy issues for years and Facebook laughed in our faces we eventually got the GDPR. That's exactly the kind of "either get your shit together or we will legislate it" this thread is about.
  - troyastorino 7y ago
    America is not a democracy — it is a constitutional republic with democratic elements. America has democratic election of representatives, the the lawmaking is done by those representatives, not directly. California’s proposition system is an example of true direct democracy. The constitutional part is important too — it limits what people, and their representatives, can do even if they have a majority.
    - wongarsu 7y ago
      The house of representatives is directly elected, same with the senate. While the laws are not directly voted on by the people, they are indirectly voted on by the people by their choice of representative. After all if direct democracy was the only valid form of democracy it wouldn't need the qualifier "direct". The constitution is an important part of limiting abuse and channeling everything, it can be changed with a two-thirds majority. So the citizens can change the constitution by choosing representatives who want to do so, and we still have democracy. Similarly when electing the president people vote for a person who will vote for the president. While it is a weird system, in essence the leader is chosen by the people. Calling only direct democracy a democracy would be weird, by that standard a country pretty much can't be democratic for purely practical reasons (though Switzerland comes close)
      - 1000units 7y ago
        On the other hand, everything is a de facto democracy because revolution is always on the table. There's nothing wrong with being precise. In fact, it leads to fewer misunderstandings.
        Scarblac 7y ago
        The problem is that preciseness seems to be something that all US people know (is it taught in high school?) and nobody else. Systems where the government is voted for by the people are democratic regardless of the details.
    - nkozyra 7y ago
      > America is not a democracy — it is a constitutional republic with democratic elements. People like to say this all the time like it's clever, but being a republic does not preclude being democratic. The United States is a democracy.
      - dragonwriter 7y ago
        > being a republic does not preclude being democratic. No, but the particular form of the US republic does so in practice. > The United States is a democracy. The United States may have been built around an idea of representative democracy, but in function it is more of a plutocratic republic with quasi-democratic rituals.