7 ms·

How is this going to play out, legally? First-sale doctrine has been rather firmly upheld by the courts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtsaeng_v._John_Wiley_

How is this going to play out, legally? First-sale doctrine has been rather firmly upheld by the courts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtsaeng_v._John_Wiley_%26_Sons,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirtsaeng_v._John_Wiley_%26_So....

wgerard 7y ago
I mean, just because it's legal to resell nintendo products doesn't mean Amazon is required to offer a marketplace for them. First-sale just means that the sellers don't need permission from nintendo to sell the items everywhere.
- autoexec 7y ago
  When it gets to the point where you can only sell your items in one or two places where no one ever goes to buy things you've effectively broken the right of first-sale. We're not at that point yet, but Amazon's reach is unparalleled and we could easily end up in a situation where private companies, whose influence in our daily lives can dwarf that of our governments, are allowed to ignore the hard won rights we have leaving us in the same position we were in before we had them.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Amazon is less than 10% of total retail in the US. People have been operating boutique shops forever. It’s even easier on the internet.
magduf 7y ago
I don't see what first-sale doctrine has to do with this: Amazon is a private (publicly-held) company and is free to disallow certain products from being sold on its site. First-sale doctrine means you're free to take your used Nintendo cartridges and set up a table on the sidewalk (subject to local laws about street sellers of course) and sell them to passers-by. Amazon doesn't have to provide you a venue for selling them. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to sell older Nintendo gear on Amazon anyway. This is exactly what eBay is for. eBay's fees are probably a little lower too.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to sell older Nintendo gear on Amazon anyway. This is exactly what eBay is for. Because the customers are on Amazon, not eBay.
  - dawnerd 7y ago
    FYI buyers on are eBay too, esp. for vintage games.
    - thaumasiotes 7y ago
      I am confident that the reason I gave is an accurate answer to the question I gave it in response to, for at least a very large share of sellers. Note that you can do something for a given reason regardless of whether that reason is true. However, the fact that it's possible to run a business doing nothing but selling things on Amazon that you buy on eBay when an order comes in strongly suggests that the customers really are on Amazon and not on eBay.
      - dawnerd 7y ago
        Flip can be said, I know of a few sellers that sell on eBay and buy from Amazon. No one is debating that Amazon is larger, you just said the buyers are not on eBay... which is simply not true at all.
      - yowlingcat 7y ago
        Interesting. I've long suspected the dropship arbitrageurs had existed on Amazon for a while, but I thought they had long since become unprofitable, or at least this Amazon to eBay channel had. Could you go into more detail about this? I'm sorta curious about how big the market is.
        dawnerd 7y ago
        It’s fairly common. I sell a lot on eBay and get maybe an order a week with a message of “do not include invoice, item is a gift” which is dumb since we all know they’r drop shipping. I love it, never have a problem with those buyers. But I do include thank you cards in them with my eBay stores.
scarface74 7y ago
Most retailers wouldn't go near selling things from unknown, unapproved vendors/distributors. Most of the problems with Amazon involve allowing unvetted third parties to sell on their site. You have the right to sell it, but Amazon also has the right not to allow you to sell it on their platform.
en4bz 7y ago
Assuming Nintendo pressured Amazon by threatening to remove its first party sales from Amazon it's likely that this would be tortious interference with a contract. However since most of the third party sellers are selling a high volume of bootlegs like the article says it's unlikely they would sue for fear of a counter-claim of copyright infringement. Also the cost to sue probably outweighs the value of theses "businesses".
- ikeboy 7y ago
  There's a handful of suits out there by Amazon sellers against brands for similar behavior. Here's a list I put together a few months ago: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6742774/abg-prime-group-v-innovative-salon-products/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6742774/abg-prime-group... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-incopro-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-inco... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-link-usa-corporation/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-lin... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15690011/thimes-solutions-inc-v-tp-link-usa-corporation/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15690011/thimes-solutio... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6208157/abg-prime-group-v-mixed-chicks-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6208157/abg-prime-group... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6207822/thursday-llc-v-klhip-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6207822/thursday-llc-v-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4562806/forgg-llc-v-dead-end-survival-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4562806/forgg-llc-v-dea... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/5369911/ajb-enterprises-llc-v-doe/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/5369911/ajb-enterprises... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6350526/sarkis-a-kitsinian-v-penyamin-manoukian/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6350526/sarkis-a-kitsin... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7513066/depasquale-v-dunkin-brands-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7513066/depasquale-v-du... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4199697/depasquale-v-jacobowitz/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4199697/depasquale-v-ja...
  - themagician 7y ago
    Unbelievable. Amazon Sellers are such a disease.
astura 7y ago
Every retailer has their own policies, I can't sell my used video games at Best Buy or Walmart either. The first sale doctrine doesn't force Amazon or any other retailer to operate as a flea market for unvetted sellers.
paulcole 7y ago
This doesn’t seem to be a first sale doctrine issue in any way and is not related to the case you linked at all. Just because you have the right to sell something doesn’t mean you have the right to list it for sale wherever you want.

wgerard 7y ago

I mean, just because it's legal to resell nintendo products doesn't mean Amazon is required to offer a marketplace for them. First-sale just means that the sellers don't need permission from nintendo to sell the items everywhere.

autoexec 7y ago
When it gets to the point where you can only sell your items in one or two places where no one ever goes to buy things you've effectively broken the right of first-sale. We're not at that point yet, but Amazon's reach is unparalleled and we could easily end up in a situation where private companies, whose influence in our daily lives can dwarf that of our governments, are allowed to ignore the hard won rights we have leaving us in the same position we were in before we had them.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Amazon is less than 10% of total retail in the US. People have been operating boutique shops forever. It’s even easier on the internet.

magduf 7y ago

I don't see what first-sale doctrine has to do with this: Amazon is a private (publicly-held) company and is free to disallow certain products from being sold on its site. First-sale doctrine means you're free to take your used Nintendo cartridges and set up a table on the sidewalk (subject to local laws about street sellers of course) and sell them to passers-by. Amazon doesn't have to provide you a venue for selling them. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to sell older Nintendo gear on Amazon anyway. This is exactly what eBay is for. eBay's fees are probably a little lower too.

thaumasiotes 7y ago
> Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to sell older Nintendo gear on Amazon anyway. This is exactly what eBay is for. Because the customers are on Amazon, not eBay.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  FYI buyers on are eBay too, esp. for vintage games.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    I am confident that the reason I gave is an accurate answer to the question I gave it in response to, for at least a very large share of sellers. Note that you can do something for a given reason regardless of whether that reason is true. However, the fact that it's possible to run a business doing nothing but selling things on Amazon that you buy on eBay when an order comes in strongly suggests that the customers really are on Amazon and not on eBay.
    - dawnerd 7y ago
      Flip can be said, I know of a few sellers that sell on eBay and buy from Amazon. No one is debating that Amazon is larger, you just said the buyers are not on eBay... which is simply not true at all.
    - yowlingcat 7y ago
      Interesting. I've long suspected the dropship arbitrageurs had existed on Amazon for a while, but I thought they had long since become unprofitable, or at least this Amazon to eBay channel had. Could you go into more detail about this? I'm sorta curious about how big the market is.
      - dawnerd 7y ago
        It’s fairly common. I sell a lot on eBay and get maybe an order a week with a message of “do not include invoice, item is a gift” which is dumb since we all know they’r drop shipping. I love it, never have a problem with those buyers. But I do include thank you cards in them with my eBay stores.

scarface74 7y ago

Most retailers wouldn't go near selling things from unknown, unapproved vendors/distributors. Most of the problems with Amazon involve allowing unvetted third parties to sell on their site. You have the right to sell it, but Amazon also has the right not to allow you to sell it on their platform.

en4bz 7y ago

Assuming Nintendo pressured Amazon by threatening to remove its first party sales from Amazon it's likely that this would be tortious interference with a contract. However since most of the third party sellers are selling a high volume of bootlegs like the article says it's unlikely they would sue for fear of a counter-claim of copyright infringement. Also the cost to sue probably outweighs the value of theses "businesses".

ikeboy 7y ago
There's a handful of suits out there by Amazon sellers against brands for similar behavior. Here's a list I put together a few months ago: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6742774/abg-prime-group-v-innovative-salon-products/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6742774/abg-prime-group... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-incopro-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/13477612/johnson-v-inco... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-link-usa-corporation/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6846972/starke-v-tp-lin... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15690011/thimes-solutions-inc-v-tp-link-usa-corporation/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/15690011/thimes-solutio... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6208157/abg-prime-group-v-mixed-chicks-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6208157/abg-prime-group... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6207822/thursday-llc-v-klhip-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6207822/thursday-llc-v-... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4562806/forgg-llc-v-dead-end-survival-llc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4562806/forgg-llc-v-dea... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/5369911/ajb-enterprises-llc-v-doe/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/5369911/ajb-enterprises... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6350526/sarkis-a-kitsinian-v-penyamin-manoukian/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6350526/sarkis-a-kitsin... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7513066/depasquale-v-dunkin-brands-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/7513066/depasquale-v-du... https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4199697/depasquale-v-jacobowitz/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4199697/depasquale-v-ja...
- themagician 7y ago
  Unbelievable. Amazon Sellers are such a disease.

astura 7y ago

Every retailer has their own policies, I can't sell my used video games at Best Buy or Walmart either. The first sale doctrine doesn't force Amazon or any other retailer to operate as a flea market for unvetted sellers.

paulcole 7y ago

This doesn’t seem to be a first sale doctrine issue in any way and is not related to the case you linked at all. Just because you have the right to sell something doesn’t mean you have the right to list it for sale wherever you want.