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This article talks about the cost of opting out, but doesn't go into some of the more insidious ways in which companies have made it harder and harder to do so.

by d3nj4l 7y ago

This article talks about the cost of opting out, but doesn't go into some of the more insidious ways in which companies have made it harder and harder to do so. I recently opened the Downloads app on my new Mi phone only to find a notice asking me to grant authorization to Xiami to "... collect, process and use [my] personal data" in order to use the app[1]. Why does a basic downloads app need to gather and analyze my personal data? Why can't I use a version of the app that doesn't collect that data, and why is the agreement framed almost as a carte blanche for Xiaomi to collect personal data? I can see that the downloads app is running in the background, because it sends me notifications every now and then about recent downloads, which was what prompted me to open the app in the first place as I wanted to disable those on the app level. Now there's an app on my phone that's constantly running in the background whose behaviour I cannot control except by blocking all permissions and internet access unless I decide to give Xiaomi the keys to my data. I won't even go into the "Security" app that comes pre-installed that cannot be removed and has permissions to record audio granted by default! Similarly, Gitlab recently prevented people from logging in and even deleting their own repos unless they agreed to data collection[2]. They had the feature to "opt-out" by setting DNT on your browser - but only if you granted them permission to collect data first. They did turn that feature back, but only after widespread criticism from all quarters. I might just be cynical, but I think we might see more and more companies use basic features as Trojan horses for data collection that is unnecessary to the functioning of those basic features themselves, with options to "opt-out" as cover and PR. [1] https://i.imgur.com/yxokdzY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/yxokdzY.jpg [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dm72oa/gitlab_mandating_thirdparty_telemetry_locks_out/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dm72oa/gitlab_...

sokoloff 7y ago
> Why can't I use a version of the app that doesn't collect that data Because that particular developer hasn’t chosen to offer you that deal. If you don’t like the deal vendor X is offering, don’t use vendor X. Particularly in the case of a phone app, you tend to have a lot of choice. If vendor Y provides you a deal you like better, why not use them? You might find that vendors who offer those terms might bundle them with other terms you don’t prefer (like charging money directly for the app or service).
- squiggleblaz 7y ago
  That's absolutely daft. You can pick your lord, but they'll all demand unnecessary permissions. The road to serfdom looks like capitalism working according to spec - right up until you can't meaningfully vote.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    The difference is in a great many cases, you can pick "no lord". Don't like being tracked with electronic tolling transponder? Don't use a toll transponder. Don't like giving Xiami permissions to use your personal data? Don't install a Xiami app. Don't like the supermarket tracking your purchases? Pay cash and don't use the loyalty card. The key is that you have to be willing to give up what those things give you as well. The article even lists several: "long waits at road toll cash lines, higher prices at grocery stores, inferior seating on airline flights." There were very few things in the article that I read that a principled person literally could not reasonably live without. Electricity was perhaps the closest, but even most automated meter reading or smart metering programs have a way to pay a monthly fee for a dumb meter to be installed and read manually. If that's the case, then the question is one of convenience vs privacy tradeoff. I choose to get a driver's license, to have a car and to register it and put license plates on it. I could bike or walk. I choose to use credit cards, frequent flier and other loyalty programs, to use electronic tolling and automated meter reading, to use Kindles and highlight passages, to use a TiVo, Netflix, and Amazon to consume television, to use a smartphone and many apps, to connect with friends and family on Facebook and colleagues on LinkedIn. I do so because I perceive the benefit of doing so to be extraordinarily higher than the loss of privacy. That's quite a bit different from being a feudal serf living on a lord's land in my book.
    - somatic 7y ago
      You have erected a hilarious false choice. The supermarket is recording your image as you browse through the store, and within five years will assuredly be plugging you into facial recognition software. It is not necessary for you to have a toll transponder in order for your car to be tracked. You have a license plate which can be trivially collected and indexed with off-the-shelf hardware and software. If you have a car made within the last few years, it probably has a permanent tether to the Internet. Your cell phone is triangulated and your location is approximated to a handful of feet by your carrier. In some not-too-distant future, it’s easy to imagine the death of cash, the outmoded way to pay: cryptocurrency is just so much sexier. Newsflash: every man is not his own island. In excusing those responsible for polluting my life, you are culpable also.

by d3nj4l 7y ago

sokoloff 7y ago

> Why can't I use a version of the app that doesn't collect that data Because that particular developer hasn’t chosen to offer you that deal. If you don’t like the deal vendor X is offering, don’t use vendor X. Particularly in the case of a phone app, you tend to have a lot of choice. If vendor Y provides you a deal you like better, why not use them? You might find that vendors who offer those terms might bundle them with other terms you don’t prefer (like charging money directly for the app or service).

squiggleblaz 7y ago
That's absolutely daft. You can pick your lord, but they'll all demand unnecessary permissions. The road to serfdom looks like capitalism working according to spec - right up until you can't meaningfully vote.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  The difference is in a great many cases, you can pick "no lord". Don't like being tracked with electronic tolling transponder? Don't use a toll transponder. Don't like giving Xiami permissions to use your personal data? Don't install a Xiami app. Don't like the supermarket tracking your purchases? Pay cash and don't use the loyalty card. The key is that you have to be willing to give up what those things give you as well. The article even lists several: "long waits at road toll cash lines, higher prices at grocery stores, inferior seating on airline flights." There were very few things in the article that I read that a principled person literally could not reasonably live without. Electricity was perhaps the closest, but even most automated meter reading or smart metering programs have a way to pay a monthly fee for a dumb meter to be installed and read manually. If that's the case, then the question is one of convenience vs privacy tradeoff. I choose to get a driver's license, to have a car and to register it and put license plates on it. I could bike or walk. I choose to use credit cards, frequent flier and other loyalty programs, to use electronic tolling and automated meter reading, to use Kindles and highlight passages, to use a TiVo, Netflix, and Amazon to consume television, to use a smartphone and many apps, to connect with friends and family on Facebook and colleagues on LinkedIn. I do so because I perceive the benefit of doing so to be extraordinarily higher than the loss of privacy. That's quite a bit different from being a feudal serf living on a lord's land in my book.
  - somatic 7y ago
    You have erected a hilarious false choice. The supermarket is recording your image as you browse through the store, and within five years will assuredly be plugging you into facial recognition software. It is not necessary for you to have a toll transponder in order for your car to be tracked. You have a license plate which can be trivially collected and indexed with off-the-shelf hardware and software. If you have a car made within the last few years, it probably has a permanent tether to the Internet. Your cell phone is triangulated and your location is approximated to a handful of feet by your carrier. In some not-too-distant future, it’s easy to imagine the death of cash, the outmoded way to pay: cryptocurrency is just so much sexier. Newsflash: every man is not his own island. In excusing those responsible for polluting my life, you are culpable also.