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Deep Sleep May Help the Brain Clear Alzheimer's Toxins

355 points by spking 7y ago

dr_dshiv 7y ago
Here's the Science paper they reference: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628 And here is the Dutch Design Week exhibition that explores how vibroacoustic sound healing might promote similar effects through somatosensory entrainment U(neuromodulation). The sound healing bit is only partially tongue-in-cheek. http://www.design-united.nl/rethinking-interaction/feel-the-vibe-vibroacoustic-sound-healing-2-0/ http://www.design-united.nl/rethinking-interaction/feel-the-...
newsbinator 7y ago
My watch says I get between 20 minutes and 70 minutes of deep sleep a night, out of 7 ~ 9 hours total. I've tried Magnesium, Melatonin, turning off all devices hours before bed, turning off all lights hours before bed, sleeping in a cold room, etc. I'm not overweight or unhealthy. I take in zero caffeine, zero alcohol/zero drugs. I do take a daily PPI. I feel tired a lot, and I seem to feel more tired on days when my watch (Xiaomi Smart Band 3) reports the lowest deep sleep scores (I consider how I'm feeling first, then look at the sleep score to compare). I want more deep sleep, but try as I might I don't know how to make it happen.
- jryan49 7y ago
  Do you get good, exhausting exercise? I've found that's the magic formula for me.
  - newsbinator 7y ago
    Great question. I suppose not exhausting enough! Getting my heart rate up from walking rapidly up steep hills, doing low-weight squats, pushups/bicep curls, etc seems to have no effect. I guess I should try lifting heavy, consistently over weeks, and see if that does anything.
    - notus 7y ago
      I've found certain types of martial arts to be one of the most exhausting activities I have ever done. Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, no amount of lifting has gotten me as exhausted as those have. Slept like a baby.
    - hhanesand 7y ago
      I’d also suggest some interval training. If you have access to stair steppers, I highly recommend them. Easy to get started, and not too tough on your joints. 2 minutes at a pace that’s tough to sustain, and then 2 minutes off. I have a max HR of ~200 and I tend to level off at 180-188 during the interval section. Once you get accustomed to it you can play around with the timing ofc.
    - PKop 7y ago
      Higher intensity, which doesn't have to come from heavier weight per say, but increased power, work/time meaning total work, higher weight up or time down. HIIT/interval/crossfit style are prime examples of in my opinion the most efficient way to achieve "exhausting" workouts (lowest time commitment, and with group gym style, lowest mental effort to formulate workout plans; it's all left to the trainer).
    - lenzm 7y ago
      I would think that more strenuous cardio would be more effective than lifting heavy.
    - porknubbins 7y ago
      Watch out for that spikes your adrenaline like sprinting or heavy lifting in the evening though. That said I always get amazing sleep after heavy deadlifts as done properly they fatigue your CNS much more than the individual muscles so its like your brain forces a shutdown to recover. Squats and bench just wake me up though.
  - dsaavy 7y ago
    The magic exercise for me is jogging at least 3 miles at about a heart rate of 150-160. I consistently get 3 hours deep sleep according to the AutoSleep app and dream heavily. Otherwise I’m usually getting 1-1.5 hours deep sleep with other exercise and less than 1 if I don’t do anything all day. Just an anecdote for comparison.
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      I tried running / jogging (lower HR because my heart is bad) but beside this I worked at a recycling factory. Handling truck parts, crouching to unscrew frames etc etc. This kind of evergoing physical activity drained me deeper and smoother than jogging.
      - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
        This is why I wish there was a job where I could work at a computer part of the time and do some strenuous physical activity part of the time. I am so useful sitting at a desk but it’s not so useful to me to always be sedentary. Sadly nobody would want to pay my engineering rate for picking weeds in the garden or taking out all the trash.
        agumonkey 7y ago
        I did this in June, 39h/week on trucks. Paradoxically I was pumped by this because having regular activity and financial safety freed me from a ton of issues. So much that during lunch pause I was doing pushups and before bedtime I'd learn Django to make an application for this job. Unfortunately the boss did me wrong so I quit. To babble a bit more: in August I tried taking a part time morning delivery gig (4-8m 24h/week) thinking it would feel the same but not at all (newspaper delivery is physically stressful), so I quit drained after a month, even though it required no effort and was less time per week than the truck thing. Right now I have a 30h/week food delivery gig, it's just right to keep me active and the rest of the day I'm writing vue code now. I may try to find something that would make my body more fit. Maybe having a woodworking shop or something similar.
        7y ago
  - pixelbash 7y ago
    I've found that it works this way for a while, but as fitness rises getting that same bone deep exhaustion gets quite difficult (at least without spending hours on it). Is there a way to switch things up and keep that going long term?
    - alonmower 7y ago
      Higher intensity interval style exercises can get you there no matter your level of fitness. If you’ve never tried sprint intervals on an assault bike I’d recommend giving those a shot.
      - _Microft 7y ago
        What's working for me right now is 'running' up hills. Running not in the 'fast' sense yet but it works. I found a nice route, 7-8km, 250m up and the same down in three climbs and descents each and will keep running it for now. As I can always increase speed to make it more demanding, it will be fine for a long time most likely.
  - hnick 7y ago
    Heavy exercise makes me very hot at night for some reason. It's nearly impossible to sleep or stay still. It's worse if I do it later in the day, but if it's intense enough it doesn't matter when. I wonder why...
    - ip26 7y ago
      Do you shower off? The layer of salt makes me sticky & hot right up until I rinse it off.
      - hnick 7y ago
        Yeah always. Usually I go to the gym in the morning so I shower after getting back.
    - tcoff91 7y ago
      Perhaps get a chilli pad sleep cooling system for your bed
      - hnick 7y ago
        Quite expensive but maybe worth it, thanks for the tip
  - blondin 7y ago
    curious how do those apps know when you are having deep sleep? also seems that being exhausted works for me as well. thanks for mentioning.
  - Aaargh20318 7y ago
    For me it has the opposite effect. After intense exercise I feel more awake and energetic than before, and this lasts long enough to disrupt my sleep.
- hhanesand 7y ago
  Prof. Matthew Walker says the accuracy of sleep trackers when it comes to per stage time is questionable. See Peter Attia podcasts w/ Walker. Have you thought about going to a sleep lab to get some higher quality data? It’s near impossible to diagnose someone over the Internet, especially when the subject matter is so complex.
  - newsbinator 7y ago
    That's good to hear! My sleep tracker seems to base results on heart rate, and maybe my heart rate doesn't dip enough during sleep to register? I'd like to do a sleep study, but it's over $1,000 out of pocket, so not a small investment.
    - hhanesand 7y ago
      That seems plausible to me. I don’t know if HR is a good enough signal, since it varies so much between person to person. Didn’t know they were that pricy, ouch.
    - DenisM 7y ago
      It will be worth it. No price is too high for a lifetime of good sleep.
  - throwaway9d0291 7y ago
    I think the problem is that most sleep trackers try to judge sleep based on heart-rate, which I don't think is valid. There are a few sleep headbands that use an EEG though and in my experience they've been reliable (e.g. mine correctly judges when I actually fall asleep and has correctly judged that I was in REM sleep when I woke up from a dream).
- sjg007 7y ago
  Go get a sleep study done. That will tell you. You may have sleep apnea. Also you may want to ask your doctor about a sleep aid such as ambien.
  - hhanesand 7y ago
    Not suggesting you’re saying this, but I want to state that Ambien should never be the first tool in the toolbox for better sleep. The state it produces is not too dissimilar from a knockout.
  - anonuser123456 7y ago
    >Also you may want to ask your doctor about a sleep aid such as ambien. Exactly the wrong advice. Ambien decreases NREM 3 duration and amplitude. Do not ask for Ambien.
    - kiba 7y ago
      The doctor who wrote Why We Sleep do not recommend those sleeping pills IIRC.
      - klenwell 7y ago
        To put it mildly: Sleeping pills do not provide natural sleep, can damage health, and increase the risk of life-threatening diseases. (p. 282) On Ambien specifically: If you compare natural, deep-sleep brainwave activity to that induced by modern-day sleeping pills, such as zolpidem (brand name Ambien) or eszopiclone (brand name Lunesta), the electrical signature, or quality, is deficient.
      - jmts 7y ago
        Matthew Walker wrote that book [1]. He also has a few talks on YouTube worth checking out. From memory [2] was an informative one for me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ
      - 7y ago
- tyingq 7y ago
  Maybe undiagnosed sleep apnea? I love/hate my CPAP machine, but it helps me. There is a clear difference when I opt out.
- notjustanymike 7y ago
  For me it was environmental. Turns out the air conditioning was dehydrating me to the point of waking up every night. Do you sleep better on vacation when you're away from home?
- agumonkey 7y ago
  what about physical exercise ? what about social / emotional life ? these are the two most impactful factors I've experienced so far. Good physical exhaustion made me sleep like a baby. And a stress free job (min wage) made me sleep better too.. the simplest call for an IT job made me wake up in the middle of the night and thinking.
  - pixelbash 7y ago
    This is the first time i've connected running a company to poor sleep quality. Jeeze what a wake up call. Thanks!
    - jay_kyburz 7y ago
      Running a company is also not good for my teeth. I grind like crazy when sleeping at stressful times.
- sova 7y ago
  Body is just one half of the equation for Deep Sleep
  - andai 7y ago
    I started doing metta a few years ago when I was having a rough time. It was the one thing that made me feel better every single time. The basic instructions for are to say (or think), “May all beings be happy. May all beings be healthy. May all beings be safe. May all beings be peaceful. May all beings be free from suffering.” In this way you intentionally cultivate a peaceful, benevolent state of mind. I started doing this for entirely selfish reasons—it made me feel better! But doing this regularly for a few months I noticed an undercurrent of deep peace developing in me. You can replace “all beings” with “I”, loved ones, or people you are experiencing difficulty with. You start with whichever person feels easiest to appreciate and work your way up, so to speak :) Best wishes
- swader999 7y ago
  Shut off your wifi and put phone on airplane mode. Don't put a blue tooth sleep tracker right buy your head either.
  - tasty_freeze 7y ago
    On what basis to you give this advice? Do you think wifi is preventing sleep, and if so, by what mechanism? Those RF frequencies do not penetrate into the brain.
    - vostok 7y ago
      Wifi definitely prevents my sleep through the Hacker News mechanism.
    - fragmede 7y ago
      Wifi absolutely prevents sleep. It does so through a mechanism called "surfing the Internet on your phone in bed." Ditching the wifi and switching to wired Ethernet won't save you from this phenomenon either! The problem is a sleep endangering device that's designed to shoot particles (which also behave like waves) directly into your head! It captures the wifi signal which the device uses to reconfigures its photon emitter, which will disrupt your sleep. The only solution is to leave your phone on the other side of the room or if you can help it, another room entirely. But seriously, sleep hygiene is an important aspect of basic hygiene that should be more broadly taught, but isn't.
    - swader999 7y ago
      Just anecdotal. What's the harm in trying it a couple of nights? I was just as skeptical until I tried it. I could link to several fringe studies but what's the point? Nobody serious is going to fund this kind of research. And it's passed the tipping point, how could you find a control group that has not had previous exposure? But of course it does penetrate, it goes through walls.
      - tasty_freeze 7y ago
        > But of course it does penetrate, it goes through walls. Are your walls conductive, eg, largely made of water with various electrolytes? Because otherwise the comparison is senseless. Imagine putting an 8mm or so layer of of skin/fat/bone across each wall. By what factor would that reduce received power on the other side of the wall. The max power out of a wifi router is 100 mW, that is a tenth of a watt. The amount of power impinging on your body from any reasonable distance will reduce that power quadratically. The amount of power which makes it through your skin and bone to get to your brain, considering it is 2.2 GHz or 5 GHz, is another factor lower.
- sn41 7y ago
  I will not trust a "smart" watch. However, your fatigue is not a good sign. You should get medical advice. Perhaps you are not breathing right during your sleep. A possibility is sleep apnea. I do have allergies which make me tired after sleep, during some seasons. One of the ways I cope is to do breathing exercises before I sleep. This does help sometimes.
  - ip26 7y ago
    I had a screwed up septum which created apneas & poor sleep. Took a long time to figure out, none of the sleep doctors noticed. I imagine nine out of ten of their patients are there because of alcohol, caffeine, or obesity.
- hourislate 7y ago
  You seem to be doing all the right things. The only thing I could suggest that might help you trying cold showers before bed as painful as that sounds. It apparently promotes more restful sleep.
  - flatline 7y ago
    Hot shower 60-90 minutes before bed. Lowers your core temperature.
- meremortals 7y ago
  Fwiw I have the same habit and experience with my mi fit band 2. I try to gauge how much sleep I got based in how I feel, before looking to hopefully avoid placebo. I feel considerably better the nights I get 1.5-2 hours of deep sleep
- flatline 7y ago
  Evening qigong routine, I know people who have had good results with this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o9kvYnWKG3g https://youtube.com/watch?v=o9kvYnWKG3g
- maloney 7y ago
  How are your iron/ferritin levels? Low iron causes fatigue
- mark_l_watson 7y ago
  Thanks for your comment, it just nudged me to install two additional heart and sleep monitoring Apple Watch/iPhone apps. I don’t wear my Apple Watch to bed, but I will start tonight and collect a few weeks of data. curiosity++
- LegitShady 7y ago
  If poor sleep is affecting your life and you can't understand why, see a doctor. IF its just because your watch said so, don't worry about it.
- etagobla 7y ago
  One thing I want to try to eliminate stress is an internet detox. I think just surfing the web, even semi-intelligent stuff like Hacker News, might be really stressful. I ditched my computer and phone today while the sun was up and it was an uneasy feeling -- beyond the withdrawal, it seemed like the world I was seeing was actually a lot brighter and safer than what I'd read about online. People seemed more approachable or at least safer and happier when I took the time to look. I cleaned my room on the third hour because I wanted to, not because some stressed out blogger told me to. Right now I feel just relaxed. This may sound stupid but it's the first time in a while that I ditched the internet in a place where I normally would have it. Now I'm wondering if our more primitive ancestors would have viewed it as a cesspool of negativity that not only freaks us out but distracts us from more obvious personal issues. Anyway the connection to sleep is that stress obviously can mess with your sleep.
  - SuoDuanDao 7y ago
    I've often thought that the internet is like a global version of a small-town gossip network. Vital to proper functioning, but something to be minimized when possible.
- Zod666 7y ago
  get a sleep study and find out if you have sleep apnea.
- runnig 7y ago
  I had a similar problem. I was waking up in the middle of the night not able to get back to sleep for hours and then overslept in the morning feeling groggy for the rest of the day. Here's what I did: 1. Sleep alone in a separate bed since your SO other might wake you up inadvertently - this helped me 2. Wim Hof method for a few weeks: deep breathing and cold showers in the morning. I'm not sure which of these worked. I did these two things simultaneously and my sleep significantly improved over a couple of weeks. I'm fully recovered in the morning, feeling energized and can actually remember dreams which never happened before. I don't need Melatonin anymore and can even have an espresso in the morning. Good luck!
- throwaway9d0291 7y ago
  Your watch doesn't know what it's talking about. I have a watch, an under-mattress tracker and a headband with a ton of sensors (including an EEG). Typically, none of these agree with each other (and I trust the headband to actually be accurate). I'd strongly recommend consulting a sleep specialist. One thing you haven't mentioned is cognitive behavioural therapy, which is often the first thing people will be recommended.
  - Tomte 7y ago
    I know of the under mattress thing (Beddit for example), but I've never heard of headbands for consumers. What companies are offering those?
    - throwaway9d0291 7y ago
      The two I know of that are still running are Dreem (the one I went with) and Philips SmartSleep. I chose Dreem at the time because it looked more comfortable (no ear covering) and was more readily available in my part of the world. It looks like Philips also has consumable components, which I'm not a fan of. I've been using it for months now and I'm happy with it. It also has a feature to "stimulate" your brain to improve deep sleep and it tells me it's quite effective (comparing with stimulation sleep to without stimulation sleep), though I can't say I've noticed a huge difference.
      - Tomte 7y ago
        Thank you!
- manmal 7y ago
  Did you check CO2 levels in the bedroom, or at least take care that CO2 should theoretically exit the room? Just unlocking the window handle a little bit can create a bit of air circulation.
  - newsbinator 7y ago
    Good point! I always sleep with a window in the room at least a bit open, for air flow. And the deep sleep issues are constant across home, hotel rooms, etc.
- Florin_Andrei 7y ago
  Bring out the big guns. Time you get you started on Lunesta.
- CalRobert 7y ago
  No idea if it works for you, but if I need to sleep _really_ well I wear ear plugs, even in a relatively quiet room. They need to fit right (rolled between your palms to squish them up, then they should barely fit inside your ear and expand to fill gaps). The first time I did this it was revelatory. I woke up feeling like a new person. Sadly I don't much these days, because sleeping through a hungry/wet/scared infant isn't as acceptable (also I was a little disturbed what I could, in fact, sleep through, and whether that included smoke alarms)
  - newsbinator 7y ago
    I have tried sleeping with earplugs. For some reason I wake up gasping for breath?
- timeattack 7y ago
  I have exactly the same problem as you. I'm looking for a solution too and it seems that deep sleep length/continuity might be linked with serotonin levels. Did you take a blood test on serotonin?
- ianai 7y ago
  How were you taking melatonin? I got great benefit from it but only when I always took it at the exact same time every night, turned lights out, no screens, etc. it would still take about 3 hours to kick in. I’d take it and not shut off lights for about an hour and a half, fwiw.
  - newsbinator 7y ago
    After trial and error, I pour 1/5th of a capsule into a glass of water. It puts me to sleep within 45 ~ 60 minutes, pretty much without fail. But then my deep sleep is still far too low.
    - ianai 7y ago
      How about multiple sleeping periods per night? Ie wake up, do things until tired again, sleep. I can feel especially rested that way. I think there’s something special, too, about a morning nap after some caffeine has started to kick in.
milesvp 7y ago
I havn’t been keeping references, but this isn’t the first paper I’ve seen suggesting part of REM cycle is used to flush fluid build up in parts of the brain, and that this flushing is necessary for high cognitive utilization. Also, this flushing seems to be difficult or impossible without REM (though I suspect vigorous exercise helps). I wouldn’t be surprised if lack of sleep could help contribute to Alzheimer symptoms, if not the actual disease side effects of brain structure deterioration.
L-four 7y ago
Toxins. a poison of plant or animal origin, especially one produced by or derived from microorganisms and acting as an antigen in the body. If you've got toxins in the brain you've got bigger problems.
- Udik 7y ago
  It's a lost battle. It annoys the hell out of me because we used to laugh at the new age gurus that advised to "get rid of your toxins". Now this stupidity is everywhere and if you point it out you even get downvoted. Even here, where people are supposed to be rational and well informed.
aSplash0fDerp 7y ago
This makes alot of sense. Our bodies are amazing and unique, but require a little self-exploration to optimize (sometimes it takes extra work to get good sleep). This made the rounds a few years back, but its nice to see they are still at it. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/04/460620606/lack-of-deep-sleep-may-set-the-stage-for-alzheimers https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/04/4606206...
theli0nheart 7y ago
I've been dealing with a hormonal issue that's been negatively impacting my deep sleep for almost two years. There was a week in early February this year, right after surgery, where I felt like a million bucks. Normally, I have a pretty low-grade chronic headache (yeah, it's as horrible as it sounds). However, that week, my head felt "clear". I don't know how else to explain it other than I felt like my brain had been washed. I was going to bed at 9-9:30pm, and waking up at 5am, and felt incredible. I reverted not long afterwards, and believe I recently figured out the root of the issue (fingers crossed!), but I 100% believe that you need deep sleep to function well. IMO, it's not sufficient to get light and REM sleep; deep sleep is when true brain recovery occurs. I feel like I should know; before I started treatment, I would go to bed at 9-9:30pm and sleep until 8 and still feel exhausted. You need quality sleep in addition to quantity. Wrist-based sleep trackers are basically useless, FWIW. I've been using one pretty consistently since before my health issues started and they really can't discern the difference between light/REM/deep sleep phases. If there's anything which mirrors how I feel after waking up in the morning, it's HR dip, but even that isn't 100% reliable.
- bbernoulli 7y ago
  What do you think was the issue?! - fellow crappy-quality-sleeper
  - xeromal 7y ago
    I had dogshit slip that bordered insomnia for a while. I forced myself into a habit that triggered a sleep response. For the past 4 or 5 years, I shower in the dark and walk to my room and pass out. I avoid "turning on" after that shower. No phones, no lights, no anything Your body needs to know when its time to sleep. Texting, reading, and computer time in bed counters that.
  - theli0nheart 7y ago
    I'm really sorry about that. I had full lab work done that indicated my pituitary was shot. I'm now getting hormone injections until we get my body functioning again. I'd recommend seeing your PCP; if they push a depression diagnosis on you, push back and ask to get full lab work. I was getting stuffed with SSRIs for more than 18 months until I couldn't take it any longer.
tempsy 7y ago
I have read benefits of fasting on Alheimers as well
- etagobla 7y ago
  I laughed too hard at this
dzhiurgis 7y ago
Is there any link between cannabis use and deep sleep? I find cannabis completely removes dreams from my sleep which come back very vivid after stopping use. Many people online report the same.
- buildzr 7y ago
  Yes, cannabis kills REM sleep pretty significantly.
michaelborromeo 7y ago
Sleep on an incline - use bed risers that raise the head of the bed 4-6 inches. You’ll sleep better.
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  Is that for gerd/acid reflux type of affections or it is generally better?
  - michaelborromeo 7y ago
    Both. I haven’t done any actual tracking but others have. There are studies linked at the bottom of this article: https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/inclined-bed-therapy-sleep https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/inclined-bed-t....
    - sandos 7y ago
      I just this day realized that I did not have any head- or sinus-ache when waking up, and I had used a pillow for once. An inclined bed would probably be even better.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
pontusrehula 7y ago
I have a practical kind of question about this kind of research. How do you put a sleeping person in to an MRI machine without waking him/her up?
- hellofunk 7y ago
  The article said they were using cutting edge MRI techniques, whatever that means.
- nabla9 7y ago
  Usually the fall asleep in the machine. - People selected don't have sleeping disorders. They must abstain from caffeine and stimulants 24 hours before test. - Sleep deprivation may be used. - Ear plugs, active noise cancelation, possibly polyurethane hood in magnet bore - lower spatial resolution and slower gradient switching speed When you take measures outside MRI, you may have to play the MRI sound to get comparable results.
aitchnyu 7y ago
I have dust mite allergy and had infection-prone sinuses for years and lived with a chronic feverish feeling. I recently had FESS, using endoscope blades to clear passages. I slept great for a few weeks and then allergic symptoms came back again giving me muscle aches and a racing heart. So I wake up unrested. My Huawei band says I get recommended amount of deep sleep but deep sleep continuity is lower than recommended. I am waiting for the dust mite SLIT vaccine to kick in, it could take a year more. Till then I'm trying to isolate the mites in bed.
- deboflo 7y ago
  I had this exact issue and had a septoplasty procedure 4 years ago to fix it. The results were truly life changing because I could breath without being congested from dust mites. I had no idea how bad it was until I could breathe after the procedure. I can recommend my ENT specialist if you are interested. Getting this procedure cleared my nasal passages permanently and was probably THE best decision of my life. I can focus now.
  - deboflo 7y ago
    Dr. Kasey Li https://drkaseyli.org/ https://drkaseyli.org/
    - aitchnyu 7y ago
      Thanks, but we are kinda thousands of kilometers apart!
      - deboflo 7y ago
        Then fly to Palo Alto and get the procedure done. It costs $5K. The recovery time with Dr. Li is quick. I went back to work 2 days after the procedure. If you are suffering from lack of oxygen during sleep, you are living in a fog. Do whatever you have to do to fix it. Good luck!
chimpburger 7y ago
Keep on downvoting, soyboys. I'm sharing my real life experience and you all click DOWN. Bunch of offended pussies
- dang 7y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
maxheadroom 7y ago
Surprised that this is the first comment about this on here but we really need a better turn-of-phrase than "toxins" because kind of language validates the fads going around that are harming people - like the "get skinny in two days!" diets or the anti-vax community. Also, why do they use the term emphatically in the title of the article and then state, "...presumably removing toxins associated with Alzheimer's, researchers reported Thursday in the journal Science." That comes across as, "We don't actually know what this is doing but we're going to take a guess and just run with it." In fact, from the abstract of the paper itself, "Sleep is also associated with increased interstitial fluid volume and clearance of metabolic waste products. It is unknown why these processes co-occur and how they are related." I don't understand how metabolic waste products automatically equates to "Alzheimer's toxins" nor how they're reaching these conclusions if they don't understand their coincidence - whether accidental or intentional. Can anyone help a stranger on the internets and connect these dots? =]
- RaiseProfits 7y ago
  What do you mean by “we”?
  - Doxin 7y ago
    Presumably "We the people who don't believe in the toxins-fad but do believe in science"
    - RaiseProfits 7y ago
      Who exactly is this?
- Nasrudith 7y ago
  Part of the issue is the vagueness is likely appropriate to both as we don't know the depth. It is linked to Alzheimer's and its presence causes a negative effect so it is contextually a toxin at least until narrowed down to a more precise mechanism like say prions, inappropriate cell reactions, and/or inappropriate oxidation levels. Anyway that amateur explanation aside - the woo community is inherently appropriative of things they don't understand - witness "quantum" anything buzzwords outside of the physics or numerical context.
andy_ppp 7y ago
If people are interested in a 6h long conversation on everything to do with sleep they could do much worse than listen to Matthew Walker on the Peter Attia podcast: https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/ https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/
- theNJR 7y ago
  Such a good series.
megous 7y ago
I guess I can understand that moving fluid can at the very least dislodge other material around it, but: - how do "the toxins" get out of the cerebro-spinal cavities - if the flow is not unidirectional (with new fluid comming in), why would not the toxins just settle at slightly different place, after those fluid movements end - how is the fluid itself cleaned - what about the blood-brain barrier
- nighthawk648 7y ago
  What’s your background? It seems the answers to these questions are either intuitive or irrelevant. > - how is the fluid itself cleaned? See the intuitive and imaginative answer would say something along the lines of white blood cells would consume the toxins. How is bacteria during an infection cleaned? White blood cells consume them! Why would this point even add to your discourse? It has no relevance. Either the fluid gets cleaned or it doesn’t. Either way there is a correlation between brain health and the fluid. Also it’s not like a fucking snow globe. Or mouth wash. It’s not just a fluid reused and swashed back and forth. Again, this is why I’m asking what your background is. Did you even read the article?
  - megous 7y ago
    I read the article, it talks about the brain as if it's a washing machine, which it's not either. Why would it not be relevant? While there are white blood cells in CSF, it's several orders of magnitude less than in blood. Is it enough to clean anything? White blood cells don't pass the brain-blood barrier. So yeah, it's somewhat like a snow-globe for a lot of molecules and cells. So yeah, how is the fluid cleared? Also article states, that there's even less blood flow during the sleep cycle, so at the same time, there's even less opportunity to wash away things that can pass through blood-brain barrier away to the kidneys and out. My background is watching a lot of biology and trying to understand.
    - nighthawk648 7y ago
      > my background is watching a lot of biology and trying to understand. I think while it is okay to ask questions and to be curious you should be careful of imply or imparting logical fallacy and making judgment on such fallacy. Do some research and try to understand more about the CSF and the cleaning process. There are articles out there. Again the research shows correlation, while correlation does not imply causation until you can falsify the hypothesis you should be careful creating bias. Maybe the mere act of the fluid passing around in the brain is enough to dilute and weaken the toxin bonds, which then dilutes the effect over certain areas of the brain. Alzheimer research is very limited, and any insight into the potential cause and effect is important to give funding to. Dissent like the one you are trying to create only harms society.
tluyben2 7y ago
I do not sleep very long (when I wake up, that it is; usually dingdong after 7 hrs) but when I sleep I sleep very deep. I had fitbit saying 80% deep sleep and my doctor told me to get tested for sleep apnea and other stuff but I just sleep very deep; they found nothing. I also remember dreams (I can lucid dream whenever I want; I spent a year training that when I was 18 and it is like riding a bicycle) very vividly. I am wondering if the lucid dream training I did made my sleeppatterns like this; lucid dreaming is so much better than lsd or shrooms or games; it is free, does not harm anything and you can do anything you want (fly, infinite strength, immortal, ...) so I cannot wait to go to sleep every night.
- cdolan 7y ago
  How did you “train” for this and how do you make it happen on demand?
  - iscrewyou 7y ago
    Not OP. This can get you going: https://www.reddit.com/r/LucidDreaming https://www.reddit.com/r/LucidDreaming There are very simple tricks that can help, from what I understand. E.g. you can sleep with one leg outside your blanket and also writing down what you dreamt and reading it before the next day’s sleep.
  - tluyben2 7y ago
    The trick that works best (for me), when you feel your are going to fall asleep, keep repeating, in your head, that you are are sleeping but you are awake. It took me a month at the time to get some results; after half a year it went mostly automatic. After that I have been able to do it without effort. It takes patience though: the first 15-20 times you will likely just fall asleep and remember nothing. Outer body experience (OBE) books, although nonsense mostly, usually have very thorough guides; I used one because I was convinced that what people call OBE is actually lucid dreaming and I was right. You can train yourself with those books (the one I had mostly had the above trick) and once in a while you will sink through your bed and hang on the roof in the room below or you ‘visit friends’ etc; obviously you are just dreaming but it is fun. You are awake enough to realize what is going and to manipulate the situation.
tentboy 7y ago
Anecdotal, but we have a family friend who has just been diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. She was a brilliant colorectal surgeon and highly regarded and referred in the area but she also lived for her work, spending nights sleeping on the floor under her desk for two hours before pulling another full day of work. I am sure this lifestyle for the better part of 30 years took a toll on the body and more and more I've been hearing about the lack of sleep being related to Alzheimers
theNJR 7y ago
Interesting how there’s a lot of sleep trouble on HN. Here’s mine, curious if anyone has thoughts. For over a year now I’ve been averaging around 5.9 hours of sleep. Usually I’m up at 5am and can’t fall back asleep. Compounding this, bad nights I wake at 2 and it takes an hour to get back to sleep. Even then I’m up before 6. So, two problems: always wake up early and often wake in the middle of the night for an hour. I can get my brain to spin up at a good level if I get six hours. If I get 5 hours the day is mostly ruined. My Oura ring data doesn’t suggest sleep apnea and my wife says I don’t snore. I’m not waking up super fresh - so it’s not like I’m rested after six hours. I used to sleep just fine so I don’t think I have the genetic mutation that makes you not need 8 hours. I just can’t sleep much more than six hours lately. I’ve tried all the usual things; last meal at 4:30, exercise in morning, consistent bed time of 10pm, no devices after 9, cool room, no alcohol, black out curtains, etc. I’ve tried every supplement you can think of. Phenibut will prevent 2am wake ups but even with phenibut I can’t get more than 6.5 hours. You also shouldn’t take that more than 2-3 times a week. I’m not sure what to try next. I’d love to get back to 7-8 hours though.
- thewhitetulip 7y ago
  I had also issues, yoga + meditation + pranayam has workws wonders. The effects went away when I had taken a pause from the the activities and Normal sleep returned when I resumed them
  - kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
    I spent 10 years dealing with sleep issues. Then I started yoga and mediation back in March. Meditation daily before bed, Vinyasa five days per week after work and Yin on Sundays. I sleep like a corpse. I get into bed at 11:00pm, close my eyes, and then open my eyes and it has been seven and a half hours. edit: Yoga and meditation are no joke. Last night's sleep: https://i.imgur.com/F7IJKy3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/F7IJKy3.jpg Last night I got into bed an hour early at 9:50pm because it was thundering raining and trick-or-treating was cut short. I meditated and read for 30 mins, noticed I was falling asleep, put my book on the nightstand, rolled over and was out like a light until 6:30am. The wake-up spike at 1:20am was probably me stirring over because my cat was trying to sleep on my face. Before meditation and yoga, I would have been awake, lying in bed despairing, until 1am and then groggily rolling out of bed after a restless night barely making it to work on time.
bvinc 7y ago
I have always traditionally been someone who would stay up until 2am a few times a week, and always been lacking in sleep. I've turned that around, along with a lot of other healthy changes I've been making, along with diet, exercise, and sauna use. But the thing that's been an absolute game changer with sleep has been red glasses. So the idea is that blue light and to a lesser extent green light, both interfere with your brain's melatonin production. Everyone tells you to avoid looking at screens or your phones after dark, but who actually manages to do that? Also, these "night light" programs like flux just tone down the blue light, they don't eliminate it. These glasses block almost all blue and green light. They also have a barrier on the side so no light comes in through the side. Sure, these glasses make you look like a dork, but they're great. If I'm in any state of lacking sleep, I find everything much less stimulating, and I get tired really fast. But even better, I sleep like I went into a coma, and I feel like I've been dreaming a lot more than usual. There are tons of tips for sleeping better that I think all work, but from my experimentation, the unnatural blue and green light after sun down is by far the biggest problem that we all have. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about. https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Savior-Ultra-Disruptive-Melatonin/dp/B07CZ499J5/ https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Savior-Ultra-Disruptive-Melaton... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H44C8DT/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H44C8DT/

355 points by spking 7y ago

Here's the Science paper they reference: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628 And here is the Dutch Design Week exhibition that explores how vibroacoustic sound healing might promote similar effects through somatosensory entrainment U(neuromodulation). The sound healing bit is only partially tongue-in-cheek. http://www.design-united.nl/rethinking-interaction/feel-the-vibe-vibroacoustic-sound-healing-2-0/ http://www.design-united.nl/rethinking-interaction/feel-the-...

newsbinator 7y ago

My watch says I get between 20 minutes and 70 minutes of deep sleep a night, out of 7 ~ 9 hours total. I've tried Magnesium, Melatonin, turning off all devices hours before bed, turning off all lights hours before bed, sleeping in a cold room, etc. I'm not overweight or unhealthy. I take in zero caffeine, zero alcohol/zero drugs. I do take a daily PPI. I feel tired a lot, and I seem to feel more tired on days when my watch (Xiaomi Smart Band 3) reports the lowest deep sleep scores (I consider how I'm feeling first, then look at the sleep score to compare). I want more deep sleep, but try as I might I don't know how to make it happen.

jryan49 7y ago
Do you get good, exhausting exercise? I've found that's the magic formula for me.
- newsbinator 7y ago
  Great question. I suppose not exhausting enough! Getting my heart rate up from walking rapidly up steep hills, doing low-weight squats, pushups/bicep curls, etc seems to have no effect. I guess I should try lifting heavy, consistently over weeks, and see if that does anything.
  - notus 7y ago
    I've found certain types of martial arts to be one of the most exhausting activities I have ever done. Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, no amount of lifting has gotten me as exhausted as those have. Slept like a baby.
  - hhanesand 7y ago
    I’d also suggest some interval training. If you have access to stair steppers, I highly recommend them. Easy to get started, and not too tough on your joints. 2 minutes at a pace that’s tough to sustain, and then 2 minutes off. I have a max HR of ~200 and I tend to level off at 180-188 during the interval section. Once you get accustomed to it you can play around with the timing ofc.
  - PKop 7y ago
    Higher intensity, which doesn't have to come from heavier weight per say, but increased power, work/time meaning total work, higher weight up or time down. HIIT/interval/crossfit style are prime examples of in my opinion the most efficient way to achieve "exhausting" workouts (lowest time commitment, and with group gym style, lowest mental effort to formulate workout plans; it's all left to the trainer).
  - lenzm 7y ago
    I would think that more strenuous cardio would be more effective than lifting heavy.
  - porknubbins 7y ago
    Watch out for that spikes your adrenaline like sprinting or heavy lifting in the evening though. That said I always get amazing sleep after heavy deadlifts as done properly they fatigue your CNS much more than the individual muscles so its like your brain forces a shutdown to recover. Squats and bench just wake me up though.
- dsaavy 7y ago
  The magic exercise for me is jogging at least 3 miles at about a heart rate of 150-160. I consistently get 3 hours deep sleep according to the AutoSleep app and dream heavily. Otherwise I’m usually getting 1-1.5 hours deep sleep with other exercise and less than 1 if I don’t do anything all day. Just an anecdote for comparison.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    I tried running / jogging (lower HR because my heart is bad) but beside this I worked at a recycling factory. Handling truck parts, crouching to unscrew frames etc etc. This kind of evergoing physical activity drained me deeper and smoother than jogging.
    - TaylorAlexander 7y ago
      This is why I wish there was a job where I could work at a computer part of the time and do some strenuous physical activity part of the time. I am so useful sitting at a desk but it’s not so useful to me to always be sedentary. Sadly nobody would want to pay my engineering rate for picking weeds in the garden or taking out all the trash.
      - agumonkey 7y ago
        I did this in June, 39h/week on trucks. Paradoxically I was pumped by this because having regular activity and financial safety freed me from a ton of issues. So much that during lunch pause I was doing pushups and before bedtime I'd learn Django to make an application for this job. Unfortunately the boss did me wrong so I quit. To babble a bit more: in August I tried taking a part time morning delivery gig (4-8m 24h/week) thinking it would feel the same but not at all (newspaper delivery is physically stressful), so I quit drained after a month, even though it required no effort and was less time per week than the truck thing. Right now I have a 30h/week food delivery gig, it's just right to keep me active and the rest of the day I'm writing vue code now. I may try to find something that would make my body more fit. Maybe having a woodworking shop or something similar.
      - 7y ago
- pixelbash 7y ago
  I've found that it works this way for a while, but as fitness rises getting that same bone deep exhaustion gets quite difficult (at least without spending hours on it). Is there a way to switch things up and keep that going long term?
  - alonmower 7y ago
    Higher intensity interval style exercises can get you there no matter your level of fitness. If you’ve never tried sprint intervals on an assault bike I’d recommend giving those a shot.
    - _Microft 7y ago
      What's working for me right now is 'running' up hills. Running not in the 'fast' sense yet but it works. I found a nice route, 7-8km, 250m up and the same down in three climbs and descents each and will keep running it for now. As I can always increase speed to make it more demanding, it will be fine for a long time most likely.
- hnick 7y ago
  Heavy exercise makes me very hot at night for some reason. It's nearly impossible to sleep or stay still. It's worse if I do it later in the day, but if it's intense enough it doesn't matter when. I wonder why...
  - ip26 7y ago
    Do you shower off? The layer of salt makes me sticky & hot right up until I rinse it off.
    - hnick 7y ago
      Yeah always. Usually I go to the gym in the morning so I shower after getting back.
  - tcoff91 7y ago
    Perhaps get a chilli pad sleep cooling system for your bed
    - hnick 7y ago
      Quite expensive but maybe worth it, thanks for the tip
- blondin 7y ago
  curious how do those apps know when you are having deep sleep? also seems that being exhausted works for me as well. thanks for mentioning.
- Aaargh20318 7y ago
  For me it has the opposite effect. After intense exercise I feel more awake and energetic than before, and this lasts long enough to disrupt my sleep.
hhanesand 7y ago
Prof. Matthew Walker says the accuracy of sleep trackers when it comes to per stage time is questionable. See Peter Attia podcasts w/ Walker. Have you thought about going to a sleep lab to get some higher quality data? It’s near impossible to diagnose someone over the Internet, especially when the subject matter is so complex.
- newsbinator 7y ago
  That's good to hear! My sleep tracker seems to base results on heart rate, and maybe my heart rate doesn't dip enough during sleep to register? I'd like to do a sleep study, but it's over $1,000 out of pocket, so not a small investment.
  - hhanesand 7y ago
    That seems plausible to me. I don’t know if HR is a good enough signal, since it varies so much between person to person. Didn’t know they were that pricy, ouch.
  - DenisM 7y ago
    It will be worth it. No price is too high for a lifetime of good sleep.
- throwaway9d0291 7y ago
  I think the problem is that most sleep trackers try to judge sleep based on heart-rate, which I don't think is valid. There are a few sleep headbands that use an EEG though and in my experience they've been reliable (e.g. mine correctly judges when I actually fall asleep and has correctly judged that I was in REM sleep when I woke up from a dream).
sjg007 7y ago
Go get a sleep study done. That will tell you. You may have sleep apnea. Also you may want to ask your doctor about a sleep aid such as ambien.
- hhanesand 7y ago
  Not suggesting you’re saying this, but I want to state that Ambien should never be the first tool in the toolbox for better sleep. The state it produces is not too dissimilar from a knockout.
- anonuser123456 7y ago
  >Also you may want to ask your doctor about a sleep aid such as ambien. Exactly the wrong advice. Ambien decreases NREM 3 duration and amplitude. Do not ask for Ambien.
  - kiba 7y ago
    The doctor who wrote Why We Sleep do not recommend those sleeping pills IIRC.
    - klenwell 7y ago
      To put it mildly: Sleeping pills do not provide natural sleep, can damage health, and increase the risk of life-threatening diseases. (p. 282) On Ambien specifically: If you compare natural, deep-sleep brainwave activity to that induced by modern-day sleeping pills, such as zolpidem (brand name Ambien) or eszopiclone (brand name Lunesta), the electrical signature, or quality, is deficient.
    - jmts 7y ago
      Matthew Walker wrote that book [1]. He also has a few talks on YouTube worth checking out. From memory [2] was an informative one for me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Sleep [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXflBZXAucQ
    - 7y ago
tyingq 7y ago
Maybe undiagnosed sleep apnea? I love/hate my CPAP machine, but it helps me. There is a clear difference when I opt out.
notjustanymike 7y ago
For me it was environmental. Turns out the air conditioning was dehydrating me to the point of waking up every night. Do you sleep better on vacation when you're away from home?
agumonkey 7y ago
what about physical exercise ? what about social / emotional life ? these are the two most impactful factors I've experienced so far. Good physical exhaustion made me sleep like a baby. And a stress free job (min wage) made me sleep better too.. the simplest call for an IT job made me wake up in the middle of the night and thinking.
- pixelbash 7y ago
  This is the first time i've connected running a company to poor sleep quality. Jeeze what a wake up call. Thanks!
  - jay_kyburz 7y ago
    Running a company is also not good for my teeth. I grind like crazy when sleeping at stressful times.
sova 7y ago
Body is just one half of the equation for Deep Sleep
- andai 7y ago
  I started doing metta a few years ago when I was having a rough time. It was the one thing that made me feel better every single time. The basic instructions for are to say (or think), “May all beings be happy. May all beings be healthy. May all beings be safe. May all beings be peaceful. May all beings be free from suffering.” In this way you intentionally cultivate a peaceful, benevolent state of mind. I started doing this for entirely selfish reasons—it made me feel better! But doing this regularly for a few months I noticed an undercurrent of deep peace developing in me. You can replace “all beings” with “I”, loved ones, or people you are experiencing difficulty with. You start with whichever person feels easiest to appreciate and work your way up, so to speak :) Best wishes
swader999 7y ago
Shut off your wifi and put phone on airplane mode. Don't put a blue tooth sleep tracker right buy your head either.
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  On what basis to you give this advice? Do you think wifi is preventing sleep, and if so, by what mechanism? Those RF frequencies do not penetrate into the brain.
  - vostok 7y ago
    Wifi definitely prevents my sleep through the Hacker News mechanism.
  - fragmede 7y ago
    Wifi absolutely prevents sleep. It does so through a mechanism called "surfing the Internet on your phone in bed." Ditching the wifi and switching to wired Ethernet won't save you from this phenomenon either! The problem is a sleep endangering device that's designed to shoot particles (which also behave like waves) directly into your head! It captures the wifi signal which the device uses to reconfigures its photon emitter, which will disrupt your sleep. The only solution is to leave your phone on the other side of the room or if you can help it, another room entirely. But seriously, sleep hygiene is an important aspect of basic hygiene that should be more broadly taught, but isn't.
  - swader999 7y ago
    Just anecdotal. What's the harm in trying it a couple of nights? I was just as skeptical until I tried it. I could link to several fringe studies but what's the point? Nobody serious is going to fund this kind of research. And it's passed the tipping point, how could you find a control group that has not had previous exposure? But of course it does penetrate, it goes through walls.
    - tasty_freeze 7y ago
      > But of course it does penetrate, it goes through walls. Are your walls conductive, eg, largely made of water with various electrolytes? Because otherwise the comparison is senseless. Imagine putting an 8mm or so layer of of skin/fat/bone across each wall. By what factor would that reduce received power on the other side of the wall. The max power out of a wifi router is 100 mW, that is a tenth of a watt. The amount of power impinging on your body from any reasonable distance will reduce that power quadratically. The amount of power which makes it through your skin and bone to get to your brain, considering it is 2.2 GHz or 5 GHz, is another factor lower.
sn41 7y ago
I will not trust a "smart" watch. However, your fatigue is not a good sign. You should get medical advice. Perhaps you are not breathing right during your sleep. A possibility is sleep apnea. I do have allergies which make me tired after sleep, during some seasons. One of the ways I cope is to do breathing exercises before I sleep. This does help sometimes.
- ip26 7y ago
  I had a screwed up septum which created apneas & poor sleep. Took a long time to figure out, none of the sleep doctors noticed. I imagine nine out of ten of their patients are there because of alcohol, caffeine, or obesity.
hourislate 7y ago
You seem to be doing all the right things. The only thing I could suggest that might help you trying cold showers before bed as painful as that sounds. It apparently promotes more restful sleep.
- flatline 7y ago
  Hot shower 60-90 minutes before bed. Lowers your core temperature.
meremortals 7y ago
Fwiw I have the same habit and experience with my mi fit band 2. I try to gauge how much sleep I got based in how I feel, before looking to hopefully avoid placebo. I feel considerably better the nights I get 1.5-2 hours of deep sleep
flatline 7y ago
Evening qigong routine, I know people who have had good results with this: https://youtube.com/watch?v=o9kvYnWKG3g https://youtube.com/watch?v=o9kvYnWKG3g
maloney 7y ago
How are your iron/ferritin levels? Low iron causes fatigue
mark_l_watson 7y ago
Thanks for your comment, it just nudged me to install two additional heart and sleep monitoring Apple Watch/iPhone apps. I don’t wear my Apple Watch to bed, but I will start tonight and collect a few weeks of data. curiosity++
LegitShady 7y ago
If poor sleep is affecting your life and you can't understand why, see a doctor. IF its just because your watch said so, don't worry about it.
etagobla 7y ago
One thing I want to try to eliminate stress is an internet detox. I think just surfing the web, even semi-intelligent stuff like Hacker News, might be really stressful. I ditched my computer and phone today while the sun was up and it was an uneasy feeling -- beyond the withdrawal, it seemed like the world I was seeing was actually a lot brighter and safer than what I'd read about online. People seemed more approachable or at least safer and happier when I took the time to look. I cleaned my room on the third hour because I wanted to, not because some stressed out blogger told me to. Right now I feel just relaxed. This may sound stupid but it's the first time in a while that I ditched the internet in a place where I normally would have it. Now I'm wondering if our more primitive ancestors would have viewed it as a cesspool of negativity that not only freaks us out but distracts us from more obvious personal issues. Anyway the connection to sleep is that stress obviously can mess with your sleep.
- SuoDuanDao 7y ago
  I've often thought that the internet is like a global version of a small-town gossip network. Vital to proper functioning, but something to be minimized when possible.
Zod666 7y ago
get a sleep study and find out if you have sleep apnea.
runnig 7y ago
I had a similar problem. I was waking up in the middle of the night not able to get back to sleep for hours and then overslept in the morning feeling groggy for the rest of the day. Here's what I did: 1. Sleep alone in a separate bed since your SO other might wake you up inadvertently - this helped me 2. Wim Hof method for a few weeks: deep breathing and cold showers in the morning. I'm not sure which of these worked. I did these two things simultaneously and my sleep significantly improved over a couple of weeks. I'm fully recovered in the morning, feeling energized and can actually remember dreams which never happened before. I don't need Melatonin anymore and can even have an espresso in the morning. Good luck!
throwaway9d0291 7y ago
Your watch doesn't know what it's talking about. I have a watch, an under-mattress tracker and a headband with a ton of sensors (including an EEG). Typically, none of these agree with each other (and I trust the headband to actually be accurate). I'd strongly recommend consulting a sleep specialist. One thing you haven't mentioned is cognitive behavioural therapy, which is often the first thing people will be recommended.
- Tomte 7y ago
  I know of the under mattress thing (Beddit for example), but I've never heard of headbands for consumers. What companies are offering those?
  - throwaway9d0291 7y ago
    The two I know of that are still running are Dreem (the one I went with) and Philips SmartSleep. I chose Dreem at the time because it looked more comfortable (no ear covering) and was more readily available in my part of the world. It looks like Philips also has consumable components, which I'm not a fan of. I've been using it for months now and I'm happy with it. It also has a feature to "stimulate" your brain to improve deep sleep and it tells me it's quite effective (comparing with stimulation sleep to without stimulation sleep), though I can't say I've noticed a huge difference.
    - Tomte 7y ago
      Thank you!
manmal 7y ago
Did you check CO2 levels in the bedroom, or at least take care that CO2 should theoretically exit the room? Just unlocking the window handle a little bit can create a bit of air circulation.
- newsbinator 7y ago
  Good point! I always sleep with a window in the room at least a bit open, for air flow. And the deep sleep issues are constant across home, hotel rooms, etc.
Florin_Andrei 7y ago
Bring out the big guns. Time you get you started on Lunesta.
CalRobert 7y ago
No idea if it works for you, but if I need to sleep _really_ well I wear ear plugs, even in a relatively quiet room. They need to fit right (rolled between your palms to squish them up, then they should barely fit inside your ear and expand to fill gaps). The first time I did this it was revelatory. I woke up feeling like a new person. Sadly I don't much these days, because sleeping through a hungry/wet/scared infant isn't as acceptable (also I was a little disturbed what I could, in fact, sleep through, and whether that included smoke alarms)
- newsbinator 7y ago
  I have tried sleeping with earplugs. For some reason I wake up gasping for breath?
timeattack 7y ago
I have exactly the same problem as you. I'm looking for a solution too and it seems that deep sleep length/continuity might be linked with serotonin levels. Did you take a blood test on serotonin?
ianai 7y ago
How were you taking melatonin? I got great benefit from it but only when I always took it at the exact same time every night, turned lights out, no screens, etc. it would still take about 3 hours to kick in. I’d take it and not shut off lights for about an hour and a half, fwiw.
- newsbinator 7y ago
  After trial and error, I pour 1/5th of a capsule into a glass of water. It puts me to sleep within 45 ~ 60 minutes, pretty much without fail. But then my deep sleep is still far too low.
  - ianai 7y ago
    How about multiple sleeping periods per night? Ie wake up, do things until tired again, sleep. I can feel especially rested that way. I think there’s something special, too, about a morning nap after some caffeine has started to kick in.

milesvp 7y ago

I havn’t been keeping references, but this isn’t the first paper I’ve seen suggesting part of REM cycle is used to flush fluid build up in parts of the brain, and that this flushing is necessary for high cognitive utilization. Also, this flushing seems to be difficult or impossible without REM (though I suspect vigorous exercise helps). I wouldn’t be surprised if lack of sleep could help contribute to Alzheimer symptoms, if not the actual disease side effects of brain structure deterioration.

L-four 7y ago

Toxins. a poison of plant or animal origin, especially one produced by or derived from microorganisms and acting as an antigen in the body. If you've got toxins in the brain you've got bigger problems.

Udik 7y ago
It's a lost battle. It annoys the hell out of me because we used to laugh at the new age gurus that advised to "get rid of your toxins". Now this stupidity is everywhere and if you point it out you even get downvoted. Even here, where people are supposed to be rational and well informed.

aSplash0fDerp 7y ago

This makes alot of sense. Our bodies are amazing and unique, but require a little self-exploration to optimize (sometimes it takes extra work to get good sleep). This made the rounds a few years back, but its nice to see they are still at it. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/04/460620606/lack-of-deep-sleep-may-set-the-stage-for-alzheimers https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/01/04/4606206...

theli0nheart 7y ago

I've been dealing with a hormonal issue that's been negatively impacting my deep sleep for almost two years. There was a week in early February this year, right after surgery, where I felt like a million bucks. Normally, I have a pretty low-grade chronic headache (yeah, it's as horrible as it sounds). However, that week, my head felt "clear". I don't know how else to explain it other than I felt like my brain had been washed. I was going to bed at 9-9:30pm, and waking up at 5am, and felt incredible. I reverted not long afterwards, and believe I recently figured out the root of the issue (fingers crossed!), but I 100% believe that you need deep sleep to function well. IMO, it's not sufficient to get light and REM sleep; deep sleep is when true brain recovery occurs. I feel like I should know; before I started treatment, I would go to bed at 9-9:30pm and sleep until 8 and still feel exhausted. You need quality sleep in addition to quantity. Wrist-based sleep trackers are basically useless, FWIW. I've been using one pretty consistently since before my health issues started and they really can't discern the difference between light/REM/deep sleep phases. If there's anything which mirrors how I feel after waking up in the morning, it's HR dip, but even that isn't 100% reliable.

bbernoulli 7y ago
What do you think was the issue?! - fellow crappy-quality-sleeper
- xeromal 7y ago
  I had dogshit slip that bordered insomnia for a while. I forced myself into a habit that triggered a sleep response. For the past 4 or 5 years, I shower in the dark and walk to my room and pass out. I avoid "turning on" after that shower. No phones, no lights, no anything Your body needs to know when its time to sleep. Texting, reading, and computer time in bed counters that.
- theli0nheart 7y ago
  I'm really sorry about that. I had full lab work done that indicated my pituitary was shot. I'm now getting hormone injections until we get my body functioning again. I'd recommend seeing your PCP; if they push a depression diagnosis on you, push back and ask to get full lab work. I was getting stuffed with SSRIs for more than 18 months until I couldn't take it any longer.

tempsy 7y ago

I have read benefits of fasting on Alheimers as well

etagobla 7y ago
I laughed too hard at this

dzhiurgis 7y ago

Is there any link between cannabis use and deep sleep? I find cannabis completely removes dreams from my sleep which come back very vivid after stopping use. Many people online report the same.

buildzr 7y ago
Yes, cannabis kills REM sleep pretty significantly.

michaelborromeo 7y ago

Sleep on an incline - use bed risers that raise the head of the bed 4-6 inches. You’ll sleep better.

onemoresoop 7y ago
Is that for gerd/acid reflux type of affections or it is generally better?
- michaelborromeo 7y ago
  Both. I haven’t done any actual tracking but others have. There are studies linked at the bottom of this article: https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/inclined-bed-therapy-sleep https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/inclined-bed-t....
  - sandos 7y ago
    I just this day realized that I did not have any head- or sinus-ache when waking up, and I had used a pillow for once. An inclined bed would probably be even better.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

pontusrehula 7y ago

I have a practical kind of question about this kind of research. How do you put a sleeping person in to an MRI machine without waking him/her up?

hellofunk 7y ago
The article said they were using cutting edge MRI techniques, whatever that means.
nabla9 7y ago
Usually the fall asleep in the machine. - People selected don't have sleeping disorders. They must abstain from caffeine and stimulants 24 hours before test. - Sleep deprivation may be used. - Ear plugs, active noise cancelation, possibly polyurethane hood in magnet bore - lower spatial resolution and slower gradient switching speed When you take measures outside MRI, you may have to play the MRI sound to get comparable results.

aitchnyu 7y ago

I have dust mite allergy and had infection-prone sinuses for years and lived with a chronic feverish feeling. I recently had FESS, using endoscope blades to clear passages. I slept great for a few weeks and then allergic symptoms came back again giving me muscle aches and a racing heart. So I wake up unrested. My Huawei band says I get recommended amount of deep sleep but deep sleep continuity is lower than recommended. I am waiting for the dust mite SLIT vaccine to kick in, it could take a year more. Till then I'm trying to isolate the mites in bed.

deboflo 7y ago
I had this exact issue and had a septoplasty procedure 4 years ago to fix it. The results were truly life changing because I could breath without being congested from dust mites. I had no idea how bad it was until I could breathe after the procedure. I can recommend my ENT specialist if you are interested. Getting this procedure cleared my nasal passages permanently and was probably THE best decision of my life. I can focus now.
- deboflo 7y ago
  Dr. Kasey Li https://drkaseyli.org/ https://drkaseyli.org/
  - aitchnyu 7y ago
    Thanks, but we are kinda thousands of kilometers apart!
    - deboflo 7y ago
      Then fly to Palo Alto and get the procedure done. It costs $5K. The recovery time with Dr. Li is quick. I went back to work 2 days after the procedure. If you are suffering from lack of oxygen during sleep, you are living in a fog. Do whatever you have to do to fix it. Good luck!

chimpburger 7y ago

Keep on downvoting, soyboys. I'm sharing my real life experience and you all click DOWN. Bunch of offended pussies

dang 7y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

maxheadroom 7y ago

Surprised that this is the first comment about this on here but we really need a better turn-of-phrase than "toxins" because kind of language validates the fads going around that are harming people - like the "get skinny in two days!" diets or the anti-vax community. Also, why do they use the term emphatically in the title of the article and then state, "...presumably removing toxins associated with Alzheimer's, researchers reported Thursday in the journal Science." That comes across as, "We don't actually know what this is doing but we're going to take a guess and just run with it." In fact, from the abstract of the paper itself, "Sleep is also associated with increased interstitial fluid volume and clearance of metabolic waste products. It is unknown why these processes co-occur and how they are related." I don't understand how metabolic waste products automatically equates to "Alzheimer's toxins" nor how they're reaching these conclusions if they don't understand their coincidence - whether accidental or intentional. Can anyone help a stranger on the internets and connect these dots? =]

RaiseProfits 7y ago
What do you mean by “we”?
- Doxin 7y ago
  Presumably "We the people who don't believe in the toxins-fad but do believe in science"
  - RaiseProfits 7y ago
    Who exactly is this?
Nasrudith 7y ago
Part of the issue is the vagueness is likely appropriate to both as we don't know the depth. It is linked to Alzheimer's and its presence causes a negative effect so it is contextually a toxin at least until narrowed down to a more precise mechanism like say prions, inappropriate cell reactions, and/or inappropriate oxidation levels. Anyway that amateur explanation aside - the woo community is inherently appropriative of things they don't understand - witness "quantum" anything buzzwords outside of the physics or numerical context.

andy_ppp 7y ago

If people are interested in a 6h long conversation on everything to do with sleep they could do much worse than listen to Matthew Walker on the Peter Attia podcast: https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/ https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/

theNJR 7y ago
Such a good series.

megous 7y ago

I guess I can understand that moving fluid can at the very least dislodge other material around it, but: - how do "the toxins" get out of the cerebro-spinal cavities - if the flow is not unidirectional (with new fluid comming in), why would not the toxins just settle at slightly different place, after those fluid movements end - how is the fluid itself cleaned - what about the blood-brain barrier

nighthawk648 7y ago
What’s your background? It seems the answers to these questions are either intuitive or irrelevant. > - how is the fluid itself cleaned? See the intuitive and imaginative answer would say something along the lines of white blood cells would consume the toxins. How is bacteria during an infection cleaned? White blood cells consume them! Why would this point even add to your discourse? It has no relevance. Either the fluid gets cleaned or it doesn’t. Either way there is a correlation between brain health and the fluid. Also it’s not like a fucking snow globe. Or mouth wash. It’s not just a fluid reused and swashed back and forth. Again, this is why I’m asking what your background is. Did you even read the article?
- megous 7y ago
  I read the article, it talks about the brain as if it's a washing machine, which it's not either. Why would it not be relevant? While there are white blood cells in CSF, it's several orders of magnitude less than in blood. Is it enough to clean anything? White blood cells don't pass the brain-blood barrier. So yeah, it's somewhat like a snow-globe for a lot of molecules and cells. So yeah, how is the fluid cleared? Also article states, that there's even less blood flow during the sleep cycle, so at the same time, there's even less opportunity to wash away things that can pass through blood-brain barrier away to the kidneys and out. My background is watching a lot of biology and trying to understand.
  - nighthawk648 7y ago
    > my background is watching a lot of biology and trying to understand. I think while it is okay to ask questions and to be curious you should be careful of imply or imparting logical fallacy and making judgment on such fallacy. Do some research and try to understand more about the CSF and the cleaning process. There are articles out there. Again the research shows correlation, while correlation does not imply causation until you can falsify the hypothesis you should be careful creating bias. Maybe the mere act of the fluid passing around in the brain is enough to dilute and weaken the toxin bonds, which then dilutes the effect over certain areas of the brain. Alzheimer research is very limited, and any insight into the potential cause and effect is important to give funding to. Dissent like the one you are trying to create only harms society.

tluyben2 7y ago

I do not sleep very long (when I wake up, that it is; usually dingdong after 7 hrs) but when I sleep I sleep very deep. I had fitbit saying 80% deep sleep and my doctor told me to get tested for sleep apnea and other stuff but I just sleep very deep; they found nothing. I also remember dreams (I can lucid dream whenever I want; I spent a year training that when I was 18 and it is like riding a bicycle) very vividly. I am wondering if the lucid dream training I did made my sleeppatterns like this; lucid dreaming is so much better than lsd or shrooms or games; it is free, does not harm anything and you can do anything you want (fly, infinite strength, immortal, ...) so I cannot wait to go to sleep every night.

cdolan 7y ago
How did you “train” for this and how do you make it happen on demand?
- iscrewyou 7y ago
  Not OP. This can get you going: https://www.reddit.com/r/LucidDreaming https://www.reddit.com/r/LucidDreaming There are very simple tricks that can help, from what I understand. E.g. you can sleep with one leg outside your blanket and also writing down what you dreamt and reading it before the next day’s sleep.
- tluyben2 7y ago
  The trick that works best (for me), when you feel your are going to fall asleep, keep repeating, in your head, that you are are sleeping but you are awake. It took me a month at the time to get some results; after half a year it went mostly automatic. After that I have been able to do it without effort. It takes patience though: the first 15-20 times you will likely just fall asleep and remember nothing. Outer body experience (OBE) books, although nonsense mostly, usually have very thorough guides; I used one because I was convinced that what people call OBE is actually lucid dreaming and I was right. You can train yourself with those books (the one I had mostly had the above trick) and once in a while you will sink through your bed and hang on the roof in the room below or you ‘visit friends’ etc; obviously you are just dreaming but it is fun. You are awake enough to realize what is going and to manipulate the situation.

tentboy 7y ago

Anecdotal, but we have a family friend who has just been diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. She was a brilliant colorectal surgeon and highly regarded and referred in the area but she also lived for her work, spending nights sleeping on the floor under her desk for two hours before pulling another full day of work. I am sure this lifestyle for the better part of 30 years took a toll on the body and more and more I've been hearing about the lack of sleep being related to Alzheimers

theNJR 7y ago

Interesting how there’s a lot of sleep trouble on HN. Here’s mine, curious if anyone has thoughts. For over a year now I’ve been averaging around 5.9 hours of sleep. Usually I’m up at 5am and can’t fall back asleep. Compounding this, bad nights I wake at 2 and it takes an hour to get back to sleep. Even then I’m up before 6. So, two problems: always wake up early and often wake in the middle of the night for an hour. I can get my brain to spin up at a good level if I get six hours. If I get 5 hours the day is mostly ruined. My Oura ring data doesn’t suggest sleep apnea and my wife says I don’t snore. I’m not waking up super fresh - so it’s not like I’m rested after six hours. I used to sleep just fine so I don’t think I have the genetic mutation that makes you not need 8 hours. I just can’t sleep much more than six hours lately. I’ve tried all the usual things; last meal at 4:30, exercise in morning, consistent bed time of 10pm, no devices after 9, cool room, no alcohol, black out curtains, etc. I’ve tried every supplement you can think of. Phenibut will prevent 2am wake ups but even with phenibut I can’t get more than 6.5 hours. You also shouldn’t take that more than 2-3 times a week. I’m not sure what to try next. I’d love to get back to 7-8 hours though.

thewhitetulip 7y ago
I had also issues, yoga + meditation + pranayam has workws wonders. The effects went away when I had taken a pause from the the activities and Normal sleep returned when I resumed them
- kilo_bravo_3 7y ago
  I spent 10 years dealing with sleep issues. Then I started yoga and mediation back in March. Meditation daily before bed, Vinyasa five days per week after work and Yin on Sundays. I sleep like a corpse. I get into bed at 11:00pm, close my eyes, and then open my eyes and it has been seven and a half hours. edit: Yoga and meditation are no joke. Last night's sleep: https://i.imgur.com/F7IJKy3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/F7IJKy3.jpg Last night I got into bed an hour early at 9:50pm because it was thundering raining and trick-or-treating was cut short. I meditated and read for 30 mins, noticed I was falling asleep, put my book on the nightstand, rolled over and was out like a light until 6:30am. The wake-up spike at 1:20am was probably me stirring over because my cat was trying to sleep on my face. Before meditation and yoga, I would have been awake, lying in bed despairing, until 1am and then groggily rolling out of bed after a restless night barely making it to work on time.

bvinc 7y ago

I have always traditionally been someone who would stay up until 2am a few times a week, and always been lacking in sleep. I've turned that around, along with a lot of other healthy changes I've been making, along with diet, exercise, and sauna use. But the thing that's been an absolute game changer with sleep has been red glasses. So the idea is that blue light and to a lesser extent green light, both interfere with your brain's melatonin production. Everyone tells you to avoid looking at screens or your phones after dark, but who actually manages to do that? Also, these "night light" programs like flux just tone down the blue light, they don't eliminate it. These glasses block almost all blue and green light. They also have a barrier on the side so no light comes in through the side. Sure, these glasses make you look like a dork, but they're great. If I'm in any state of lacking sleep, I find everything much less stimulating, and I get tired really fast. But even better, I sleep like I went into a coma, and I feel like I've been dreaming a lot more than usual. There are tons of tips for sleeping better that I think all work, but from my experimentation, the unnatural blue and green light after sun down is by far the biggest problem that we all have. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about. https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Savior-Ultra-Disruptive-Melatonin/dp/B07CZ499J5/ https://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Savior-Ultra-Disruptive-Melaton... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H44C8DT/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H44C8DT/