3 ms·

Sadly, I know a lot of people who are ok with that. They're very much of the opinion, "Well, I'm doing nothing wrong, so I don't care. Especially if it helps ca

Sadly, I know a lot of people who are ok with that. They're very much of the opinion, "Well, I'm doing nothing wrong, so I don't care. Especially if it helps catch bad guys". Not really sure how to fight that.

csdreamer7 7y ago
Agreed, I have heard at least one person say that exact same thing. Others just shrug, too ashamed to say it out loud.
the-new-guy 7y ago
"Give me your phone please, unlocked."
maximente 7y ago
- do you know anyone who has been stalked, harassed, worse? or: do you have kids? - yes (hopefully) - would you tolerate use of software that allows users to more effectively stalk, harass, or worse? [especially your kids?] - no (hopefully) - are you aware that software with that power exists today, and that since at least 2007 some of its users have been convicted of using it for stalking/harassing/worse? - no, tell me more (hopefully)
- jlgaddis 7y ago
  > - would you tolerate use of software that allows users to more effectively stalk, harass, or worse? [especially your kids?] It's easy to dream up ideal scenarios, such as the above (even though they are almost never realistic). For example, one possible unexpected response to the above question might very well be: > "Such as Tor?"
  - dorchadas 7y ago
    Or, the one I get the most, "But it's our government and I have nothing to hide from them." So while they wouldn't want private actors to have that information, they're fine with the government having it because they still believe the law is actually fair and impartial and such.
mfer 7y ago
> Well, I'm doing nothing wrong... Except many people don't realize how often they commit crimes and are unaware of it. Our individual definition of right and wrong doesn't always match up with the laws on the books. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438...
diafygi 7y ago
> Not really sure how to fight that. Rather than trying to challenge them on whether they really do have anything to hide, I usually try to challenge their assumption that privacy is an individual right. Privacy isn't an individual right. It's a societal right. It's there to ensure those who want to make change can effectively organize, which is necessary in a democratic society. So you have the right to privacy whether you like it to or not, because society needs it. Keeping your individual porn habits secret is a side effect. People who tend to argue, "I have nothing to hide," usually think well of themselves. So if you can get them thinking of privacy as a social good, more "we" than "me", then you can show them that supporting privacy protections is more of an altruistic gesture than a vice. If they want a specific example, the I usually talk about women's suffrage. It's only been 100 years since women didn't have the right to vote in the U.S., and suffragettes were extremely effective in 1919 by organizing privately then showing up in mass to overwhelm legislatures and mount demonstrations that couldn't be silenced or hidden. If lawmakers knew about all those damn women organizing such big events, women likely would not have been successful at getting the right to vote. Privacy is the lubricant that lets society move, whether it's pro-life movements, pro-pot movements, or any other political movement. They all need privacy to actually be successful.
cronix 7y ago
"I'm doing nothing wrong..." Tell them that they're thinking in terms of today's standards. Imagine someone coming to power in the future, when standards have undoubtedly changed, being able to go back in time and prosecute for crimes committed in the current day. This has already started with Tweets and stuff people made 10+ years ago when they were young and dumb. Viewpoints they probably no longer hold, as they've matured. They're getting fired now for things they said then, because there's now a permanent record of it. Soon, if not already, we will no longer allow people to grow and make mistakes along the way. You will be judged for everything you say and do, places you go, things you spend your money on (cc records), people you associate with, etc. But, you'll be judged by a standard that doesn't exist today, and you don't know what it will be 30 years from now, or who will be doing it. To take it to the extreme. Ask your friends what they think Hitler (or pick some other mass murderer) would have done if he had such capabilities. How many more would have died, and would it have taken as long? They had to go door to door back then and physically search. Now they could just keyword search and not only find you, but everybody you've associated with, and who they associated with. If you wanted to find Jews, or homosexuals, or whatever you wanted...it's all right there. Just type the query in that little box, on that magical little device in your pocket. That's too much power, for anyone, at any place or any time to have. To say it will never be abused, now or in the future, is believing humans are perfect as-is and things will remain consistently the same from here on out. There has never been a time in human history where things just stayed the same. Very, very short sighted. Ask your friends if they've ever done or said anything at any point in time in their lives that would absolutely destroy their reputation, if the world could watch it happen right now. There was a pretty damn good reason why the founders created the 4th amendment. Sadly, those are just words on paper now. We gave it all up for the excuse of 9/11. That was a long time ago now. Technology/storage have been progressing quite rapidly since then. And many consider the person who lifted the veil to be a traitor. Smile, you're being recorded.
IX-103 7y ago
When I heard that from some girls in high school I responded by asking them "if they have nothing to hide, why are they wearing clothes?" I at least hope I made them think.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
> Not really sure how to fight that. "This will make it easier for a Democratic president to know about and take away your guns."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

csdreamer7 7y ago

Agreed, I have heard at least one person say that exact same thing. Others just shrug, too ashamed to say it out loud.

the-new-guy 7y ago

"Give me your phone please, unlocked."

maximente 7y ago

- do you know anyone who has been stalked, harassed, worse? or: do you have kids? - yes (hopefully) - would you tolerate use of software that allows users to more effectively stalk, harass, or worse? [especially your kids?] - no (hopefully) - are you aware that software with that power exists today, and that since at least 2007 some of its users have been convicted of using it for stalking/harassing/worse? - no, tell me more (hopefully)

jlgaddis 7y ago
> - would you tolerate use of software that allows users to more effectively stalk, harass, or worse? [especially your kids?] It's easy to dream up ideal scenarios, such as the above (even though they are almost never realistic). For example, one possible unexpected response to the above question might very well be: > "Such as Tor?"
- dorchadas 7y ago
  Or, the one I get the most, "But it's our government and I have nothing to hide from them." So while they wouldn't want private actors to have that information, they're fine with the government having it because they still believe the law is actually fair and impartial and such.

mfer 7y ago

> Well, I'm doing nothing wrong... Except many people don't realize how often they commit crimes and are unaware of it. Our individual definition of right and wrong doesn't always match up with the laws on the books. https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438900830760842 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704471504574438...

diafygi 7y ago

> Not really sure how to fight that. Rather than trying to challenge them on whether they really do have anything to hide, I usually try to challenge their assumption that privacy is an individual right. Privacy isn't an individual right. It's a societal right. It's there to ensure those who want to make change can effectively organize, which is necessary in a democratic society. So you have the right to privacy whether you like it to or not, because society needs it. Keeping your individual porn habits secret is a side effect. People who tend to argue, "I have nothing to hide," usually think well of themselves. So if you can get them thinking of privacy as a social good, more "we" than "me", then you can show them that supporting privacy protections is more of an altruistic gesture than a vice. If they want a specific example, the I usually talk about women's suffrage. It's only been 100 years since women didn't have the right to vote in the U.S., and suffragettes were extremely effective in 1919 by organizing privately then showing up in mass to overwhelm legislatures and mount demonstrations that couldn't be silenced or hidden. If lawmakers knew about all those damn women organizing such big events, women likely would not have been successful at getting the right to vote. Privacy is the lubricant that lets society move, whether it's pro-life movements, pro-pot movements, or any other political movement. They all need privacy to actually be successful.

cronix 7y ago

"I'm doing nothing wrong..." Tell them that they're thinking in terms of today's standards. Imagine someone coming to power in the future, when standards have undoubtedly changed, being able to go back in time and prosecute for crimes committed in the current day. This has already started with Tweets and stuff people made 10+ years ago when they were young and dumb. Viewpoints they probably no longer hold, as they've matured. They're getting fired now for things they said then, because there's now a permanent record of it. Soon, if not already, we will no longer allow people to grow and make mistakes along the way. You will be judged for everything you say and do, places you go, things you spend your money on (cc records), people you associate with, etc. But, you'll be judged by a standard that doesn't exist today, and you don't know what it will be 30 years from now, or who will be doing it. To take it to the extreme. Ask your friends what they think Hitler (or pick some other mass murderer) would have done if he had such capabilities. How many more would have died, and would it have taken as long? They had to go door to door back then and physically search. Now they could just keyword search and not only find you, but everybody you've associated with, and who they associated with. If you wanted to find Jews, or homosexuals, or whatever you wanted...it's all right there. Just type the query in that little box, on that magical little device in your pocket. That's too much power, for anyone, at any place or any time to have. To say it will never be abused, now or in the future, is believing humans are perfect as-is and things will remain consistently the same from here on out. There has never been a time in human history where things just stayed the same. Very, very short sighted. Ask your friends if they've ever done or said anything at any point in time in their lives that would absolutely destroy their reputation, if the world could watch it happen right now. There was a pretty damn good reason why the founders created the 4th amendment. Sadly, those are just words on paper now. We gave it all up for the excuse of 9/11. That was a long time ago now. Technology/storage have been progressing quite rapidly since then. And many consider the person who lifted the veil to be a traitor. Smile, you're being recorded.

IX-103 7y ago

When I heard that from some girls in high school I responded by asking them "if they have nothing to hide, why are they wearing clothes?" I at least hope I made them think.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

> Not really sure how to fight that. "This will make it easier for a Democratic president to know about and take away your guns."

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]