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Topics like this, I think, give us an opportunity to go deeper on the issues and concepts surrounding what's going on. I realize that the common quick answer t

by mfer 7y ago

Topics like this, I think, give us an opportunity to go deeper on the issues and concepts surrounding what's going on. I realize that the common quick answer these days is to harshly reject people and organizations we deeply disagree with. But, there may be some things worth pondering, like... Is there a way technology companies can influence these organizations and the situations of the people they touch for the better? For example, ICE is going to do what's it's going to do whether or not GitHub has a contract with them. Is there a way that technologies from companies can help ICE and organizations like it treat the people they deal with better? Does that make a difference? I'm not suggesting an opinion on this particular case. Just offering this up as an opportunity to go deeper than we tend to these days.

geofft 7y ago
> Is there a way that technologies from companies can help ICE and organizations like it treat the people they deal with better? One thing GitHub could have done, if it was serious about its "but ICE also stops human trafficking and terrorists" narrative, is insisted on selling them professional services / consulting work (perhaps at a discount - they'd already decided to donate more than the revenue of the contract, so working for ICE out of the goodness of their hearts is definitely not out of the question) which let them understand what teams and projects at ICE are using their work and how. But in their letter to employees, they listed it as a positive that they weren't doing this, they just gave ICE the product and told them to have fun. https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-developers/ https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-deve... "GitHub does not have a professional services agreement with ICE, and GitHub is not consulting with ICE on any of their projects or initiatives. GitHub has no visibility into how this software is being used, other than presumably for software development and version control." I think if you believed you could make some change for the better working within the system, the way to start is by, first, deciding what your principles are and what your approach is when your customer wants to be at odds with that (refuse to support projects you disagree with? try to change hearts and minds? etc.) in a codified way and getting agreement within the company on it, and second, insisting on a close enough consulting relationship where you can enforce that. (I also suspect that unless you have an uncommonly good product, most customers won't be a fan and will just buy from someone else.) Also GitHub, being a platform and not a direct tool for work, isn't really in a great position to influence ICE's work. "You can check in the code you use to track terrorists, but not the code you use to track DACA recipients" isn't particularly technically meaningful.
olliej 7y ago
Arguing that “they’ll do it anyway” is why IBM supported the holocaust, why companies like NSO sell to to human rights rights abusers, etc. The argument basically boils down to supporting literally anything. If enough people start saying “no, we won’t support that”, it pushes up the price of the behaviour, and could eventually lead to the entire industry dropping support - for example when all the pharmaceutical companies decide to stop allowing their drugs to be used for executions.
finnthehuman 7y ago
>Is there a way technology companies can influence these organizations and the situations of the people they touch for the better? What? With the ethical compass those surveillance system running, addiction-pushing assholes have? We should be talking about how to dial down their power in society. If they want to repent for their lack of self control in their own actions by pushing their moral standards onto others, then they can go get fucked.
SquishyPanda23 7y ago
Has this ever worked? People will come up with all sorts of reasons to convince themselves to take blood money, but surely they're self delusions at best.

by mfer 7y ago

geofft 7y ago

> Is there a way that technologies from companies can help ICE and organizations like it treat the people they deal with better? One thing GitHub could have done, if it was serious about its "but ICE also stops human trafficking and terrorists" narrative, is insisted on selling them professional services / consulting work (perhaps at a discount - they'd already decided to donate more than the revenue of the contract, so working for ICE out of the goodness of their hearts is definitely not out of the question) which let them understand what teams and projects at ICE are using their work and how. But in their letter to employees, they listed it as a positive that they weren't doing this, they just gave ICE the product and told them to have fun. https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-developers/ https://github.blog/2019-10-09-github-and-us-government-deve... "GitHub does not have a professional services agreement with ICE, and GitHub is not consulting with ICE on any of their projects or initiatives. GitHub has no visibility into how this software is being used, other than presumably for software development and version control." I think if you believed you could make some change for the better working within the system, the way to start is by, first, deciding what your principles are and what your approach is when your customer wants to be at odds with that (refuse to support projects you disagree with? try to change hearts and minds? etc.) in a codified way and getting agreement within the company on it, and second, insisting on a close enough consulting relationship where you can enforce that. (I also suspect that unless you have an uncommonly good product, most customers won't be a fan and will just buy from someone else.) Also GitHub, being a platform and not a direct tool for work, isn't really in a great position to influence ICE's work. "You can check in the code you use to track terrorists, but not the code you use to track DACA recipients" isn't particularly technically meaningful.

olliej 7y ago

Arguing that “they’ll do it anyway” is why IBM supported the holocaust, why companies like NSO sell to to human rights rights abusers, etc. The argument basically boils down to supporting literally anything. If enough people start saying “no, we won’t support that”, it pushes up the price of the behaviour, and could eventually lead to the entire industry dropping support - for example when all the pharmaceutical companies decide to stop allowing their drugs to be used for executions.

finnthehuman 7y ago

>Is there a way technology companies can influence these organizations and the situations of the people they touch for the better? What? With the ethical compass those surveillance system running, addiction-pushing assholes have? We should be talking about how to dial down their power in society. If they want to repent for their lack of self control in their own actions by pushing their moral standards onto others, then they can go get fucked.

SquishyPanda23 7y ago

Has this ever worked? People will come up with all sorts of reasons to convince themselves to take blood money, but surely they're self delusions at best.