8 ms·

I think that a lot of people see a rise and mainstreaming of White Nationalism and want to push back.

ratsmack 7y ago
If you are pro-American and are Latino, African, Asian... etc, does that make you a White Nationalist? If not, then why can we just call it Nationalism?
- JohnFen 7y ago
  White Nationalism is an entirely different thing than nationalism. But both are objectionable.
  - ratsmack 7y ago
    Please explain what you believe White Nationalism is.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      White Nationalism (in the US) is a political movement that asserts that the US should be a nation run by and for Caucasians. There are people of other ethnicities that are part of the White Nationalist movement.
      - ratsmack 7y ago
        I've never heard of that organization. Do they have a web site?
        ryanbrunner 7y ago
        What point are you trying to get at? There are plenty of ideologies and political ideas that aren't represented by a singular organization advocating for them.
        enraged_camel 7y ago
        There isn't a point he is trying to get at, because he isn't arguing in good faith.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        messick 7y ago
        Here's one of the main ones: https://www.donaldjtrump.com https://www.donaldjtrump.com
        JohnFen 7y ago
        I wasn't talking about an organization, I was talking about a movement. There are numerous different organizations of various sizes, as well as individuals, who are part of the movement. None of this is new -- white nationalism has a long and well-documented history. As with all political movements, the exact moment it started is a little fuzzy. Some place it as far back as 1916 with the KKK, but I think that most people place the modern form of it as starting in 1974 with the National Alliance.
  - standardUser 7y ago
    I'm having a hard time understanding if you were downvoted for correctly pointing out that "nationalism" and "white nationalism" are two very different things, or because you described both as objectionable.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      I wondered the same thing. I suspect it's that I said I considered plain old nationalism objectionable. That term can have very different connotations to different people.
- killface 7y ago
  don't be obtuse. you know the difference. or you're a white nationalist yourself.
- thrower123 7y ago
  It will be said that you have internalized notions of white supremacy, or that you are performing "whiteness". I wish I were joking, but these are real arguments that people make.
im3w1l 7y ago
I think it's not restricted to White Nationalism. We see a lot of pushback against Hong Kong nationalism and Catalonian nationalism and Uyghur nationalism and Kurdish nationalism recently. It's as if the forces of good suddenly decided that any nationalism is unacceptable in 2019.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  What exactly does Hong Kong nationalism (which is pro-democracy) have to do with White nationalism in the US (which is pro-racism)?
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Hong Kong nationalism is not pro-democracy. The Chinese Government supports holding elections for local government officials, including in Hong Kong. Given that, the anti-Chinese attitudes we're seeing there are quite unproductive.
    - catalogia 7y ago
      Democracy as supported and implemented by the PRC is a sick joke.
    - killface 7y ago
      The 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, commonly known in mainland China as the June Fourth Incident (Chinese: 六四事件, liùsì shìjiàn), were student-led demonstrations in Beijing (the capital of the People's Republic of China) for the establishment of basic human and press rights and against the Communist-led Chinese government in mid-1989. More broadly, it refers to the popular national movement inspired by the Beijing protests during that period, sometimes called the '89 Democracy Movement (Chinese: 八九民运, bājiǔ mínyùn). The protests were forcibly suppressed after Chinese Premier Li Peng declared martial law. In what became known as the Tiananmen Square Massacre, troops with assault rifles and tanks fired at the demonstrators trying to block the military's advance towards Tiananmen Square. The number of civilian deaths was internally estimated by the Chinese government to be near or above 10,000.
annoyingnoob 7y ago
That is surely in the mix. To me, its about human decency. I support immigration, but even if you do not support immigration you should support human decency. Making people sleep in cages on concrete, limiting supplies, limiting legal assistance, separating families - those are horrible ways to treat other humans, other humans simply seeking a better life. We are largely a nation of immigrants. We've lost sight of our roots. Its proper to stand up against this inhumane and unnecessary behavior. The government is experiencing social consequences of its own making.
- tenpies 7y ago
  I think the problem is an attribution of intent. You see "white nationalism" but: > Making people sleep in cages There was a spike in the number of illegal immigrants in the last few years, facilities were swamped. This was an unfortunate but temporary measure. It would be more irresponsible to just release people into the country without establishing their identity, criminal history, or a suitable guardian (for children). > Limiting supplies / legal assistance There are a finite resources, especially when one party sees every penny spent on immigration matters as "racist". Politicians were sounding the alarms months before this reached crisis-levels, but the other side refused to release a single penny until after it reached critical levels. > Separating families When an adult and a child arrive illegally with no documents you have two major facts to deal with: the adult has just broken a law, and you cannot establish familial ties. Given the extent of child trafficking, would you rather just give any adult that says "that's my child" custody, or would you rather separate the child from the adult until you can establish if that is actually a parent? You are damned either way because your critics will say you're "separating families" or "you're a pedophile helping traffic children". Personally, I would rather be told I'm splitting families than enabling child trafficking, but I could see the argument against that preference. So at the end of the day none of these things are happening because of white nationalism. They are happening because of an inability to control illegal immigration rates, a lack of funding for facilities, materials, and legal aid; and in order to protect minors who may be trafficked. To me, that is the real problem. One side of the media/political spectrum has decided it's white nationalism. The other sees it as something that has to be done because the alternative is worst. And to be charitable, I am sure there is a tiny fraction of a percent of a segment of the population and people involved who are white nationalists, but to think that's the motivating force is to dismiss the vast majority of people who have good intentions. What is also exponentially annoying is that both sides have become so polarized that they will never work together on this.

If you are pro-American and are Latino, African, Asian... etc, does that make you a White Nationalist? If not, then why can we just call it Nationalism?

JohnFen 7y ago
White Nationalism is an entirely different thing than nationalism. But both are objectionable.
- ratsmack 7y ago
  Please explain what you believe White Nationalism is.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    White Nationalism (in the US) is a political movement that asserts that the US should be a nation run by and for Caucasians. There are people of other ethnicities that are part of the White Nationalist movement.
    - ratsmack 7y ago
      I've never heard of that organization. Do they have a web site?
      - ryanbrunner 7y ago
        What point are you trying to get at? There are plenty of ideologies and political ideas that aren't represented by a singular organization advocating for them.
        enraged_camel 7y ago
        There isn't a point he is trying to get at, because he isn't arguing in good faith.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - messick 7y ago
        Here's one of the main ones: https://www.donaldjtrump.com https://www.donaldjtrump.com
      - JohnFen 7y ago
        I wasn't talking about an organization, I was talking about a movement. There are numerous different organizations of various sizes, as well as individuals, who are part of the movement. None of this is new -- white nationalism has a long and well-documented history. As with all political movements, the exact moment it started is a little fuzzy. Some place it as far back as 1916 with the KKK, but I think that most people place the modern form of it as starting in 1974 with the National Alliance.
- standardUser 7y ago
  I'm having a hard time understanding if you were downvoted for correctly pointing out that "nationalism" and "white nationalism" are two very different things, or because you described both as objectionable.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    I wondered the same thing. I suspect it's that I said I considered plain old nationalism objectionable. That term can have very different connotations to different people.
killface 7y ago
don't be obtuse. you know the difference. or you're a white nationalist yourself.
thrower123 7y ago
It will be said that you have internalized notions of white supremacy, or that you are performing "whiteness". I wish I were joking, but these are real arguments that people make.

im3w1l 7y ago

I think it's not restricted to White Nationalism. We see a lot of pushback against Hong Kong nationalism and Catalonian nationalism and Uyghur nationalism and Kurdish nationalism recently. It's as if the forces of good suddenly decided that any nationalism is unacceptable in 2019.

CydeWeys 7y ago
What exactly does Hong Kong nationalism (which is pro-democracy) have to do with White nationalism in the US (which is pro-racism)?
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Hong Kong nationalism is not pro-democracy. The Chinese Government supports holding elections for local government officials, including in Hong Kong. Given that, the anti-Chinese attitudes we're seeing there are quite unproductive.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    Democracy as supported and implemented by the PRC is a sick joke.
  - killface 7y ago
    The 1989 Tiananmen Square protests, commonly known in mainland China as the June Fourth Incident (Chinese: 六四事件, liùsì shìjiàn), were student-led demonstrations in Beijing (the capital of the People's Republic of China) for the establishment of basic human and press rights and against the Communist-led Chinese government in mid-1989. More broadly, it refers to the popular national movement inspired by the Beijing protests during that period, sometimes called the '89 Democracy Movement (Chinese: 八九民运, bājiǔ mínyùn). The protests were forcibly suppressed after Chinese Premier Li Peng declared martial law. In what became known as the Tiananmen Square Massacre, troops with assault rifles and tanks fired at the demonstrators trying to block the military's advance towards Tiananmen Square. The number of civilian deaths was internally estimated by the Chinese government to be near or above 10,000.

annoyingnoob 7y ago

That is surely in the mix. To me, its about human decency. I support immigration, but even if you do not support immigration you should support human decency. Making people sleep in cages on concrete, limiting supplies, limiting legal assistance, separating families - those are horrible ways to treat other humans, other humans simply seeking a better life. We are largely a nation of immigrants. We've lost sight of our roots. Its proper to stand up against this inhumane and unnecessary behavior. The government is experiencing social consequences of its own making.

tenpies 7y ago
I think the problem is an attribution of intent. You see "white nationalism" but: > Making people sleep in cages There was a spike in the number of illegal immigrants in the last few years, facilities were swamped. This was an unfortunate but temporary measure. It would be more irresponsible to just release people into the country without establishing their identity, criminal history, or a suitable guardian (for children). > Limiting supplies / legal assistance There are a finite resources, especially when one party sees every penny spent on immigration matters as "racist". Politicians were sounding the alarms months before this reached crisis-levels, but the other side refused to release a single penny until after it reached critical levels. > Separating families When an adult and a child arrive illegally with no documents you have two major facts to deal with: the adult has just broken a law, and you cannot establish familial ties. Given the extent of child trafficking, would you rather just give any adult that says "that's my child" custody, or would you rather separate the child from the adult until you can establish if that is actually a parent? You are damned either way because your critics will say you're "separating families" or "you're a pedophile helping traffic children". Personally, I would rather be told I'm splitting families than enabling child trafficking, but I could see the argument against that preference. So at the end of the day none of these things are happening because of white nationalism. They are happening because of an inability to control illegal immigration rates, a lack of funding for facilities, materials, and legal aid; and in order to protect minors who may be trafficked. To me, that is the real problem. One side of the media/political spectrum has decided it's white nationalism. The other sees it as something that has to be done because the alternative is worst. And to be charitable, I am sure there is a tiny fraction of a percent of a segment of the population and people involved who are white nationalists, but to think that's the motivating force is to dismiss the vast majority of people who have good intentions. What is also exponentially annoying is that both sides have become so polarized that they will never work together on this.