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I don’t know, the rest of the developed world doesn’t want to live with gun violence, and they... don’t. Your argument is absurd, though, because most knives an

I don’t know, the rest of the developed world doesn’t want to live with gun violence, and they... don’t. Your argument is absurd, though, because most knives and apples aren’t designed to kill people, and serve other purposes. You can prevent access to one thing (like pipe bombs) without preventing access to other things (like knives). As always, intent and purpose matter, and it’s not all-or-nothing.

dokem 7y ago
There is no other nation in the world which compares to the US. The US is the world power and it’s citizens have more rights than any other. So you cannot say that what ‘works’ for some fly by night westernized counties will work for the current flag ship of human progress.
- wcarron 7y ago
  As an American citizen, this is one of the most laughable statements I've heard all day.
  - big_chungus 7y ago
    Being an American is not really a rebuttal of the above comment. Neither of you speak for all Americans. America being a world power is factual but not as directly pertinent as other issues. What is pertinent is that America has significantly more diversity than other developed nations. More importantly, there is significant cultural tension between many different groups. Finally, guns have legitimate uses, and are by-and-large used by legitimate people. Per FBI statistics [0], significantly more people were killed in 2016 by knives or alike weapons, whereas 374 deaths by rifle. Certainly handguns represent a larger number, but the current push is against so-called "assault rifles" which are, needless to say, categorized as "rifles" in the referenced data. Is a knife an in-appropriate symbol? [0]: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
    - wcarron 7y ago
      > The US is the world power and it’s citizens have more rights than any other From the GP, that is demonstrably false. Look at German citizenry. They have equal or more rights than American citizens do. > the current flag ship of human progress. Again, this is complete bullshit. Many other nations have better healthcare, stronger privacy protections, better educational systems, more efficient transit systems, higher air quality, lower rates of incarceration. I could go on and on. America is not "the current flagship of human progress" > So you cannot say that what ‘works’ for some fly by night westernized counties will work for the current flag ship of human progress. What is a 'fly-by-night westernized country'? The fuck is that even supposed to mean? It's an ignorant, nationalistic dig at other "Western coutnries" based on nothing at all. > There is no other nation in the world which compares to the US False. Nordic countries have better healthcare, a cleaner environment, better education, better transit, more walkable cities. The EU as a whole has stronger privacy protections than the US. There are MANY ways to compare countries to the US, and, more often than not, when compared to other "western coutnries", the US comes out behind.
      - big_chungus 7y ago
        I think you may have responded to the wrong post; the things you "quoted" from me, I did not say. However, here's my response to your arguments. > Look at German citizenry. They have equal or more rights than American[s]. Source? I'd say Americans are more free. I don't consider "positive rights" to increase liberty; you can't make one more free by requiring another to do something for him to fulfill his freedom. Doctors, houses, etc. are not rights. > better healthcare No, there is _more_ healthcare. Quality, access, and cost are the iron triangle of medicine; pick two. We picked quality and price, and those were good choices. Germany picked universality and cost; they traded some of that cost to the tax payers, and got some quality, but most cutting-edge medical research is in America. > better educational systems Before college, probably yes. I agree we should give fewer hand-outs and allocate more to education. > fly-by-night I didn't use those words; please don't claim I did. It weakens your argument. > Nordic countries have better healthcare Better is subjective; see iron triangle. > a cleaner environment Norway, for instance, makes a huge amount of money off Statoil (now Equinor). They have small population sizes relative to natural resources. This means they export things that pollute and dump that pollution elsewhere. Though Equinor is trying to sequester carbon, it's nowhere near total output and doesn't account for the by-products of O&G production. It is also only from part of one operation, and only removing CO2 from natural gas. Equinor also owned stakes in oil sands, which are absolutely horrible for the environment. Why do I bring this up? To point out that many nordic nations sell resources to others, mine resources in other nations, etc. They rely on negative externalities to pay for their extravagant welfare states. According to the wikipedia article, "Economy of Norway": "Norway's modern manufacturing and welfare system rely on a financial reserve produced by exploitation of natural resources, particularly North Sea oil." (there are four cited sources). > better transit Transit is not a right. America is significantly larger. > more walkable cities That's a right? Also, their cities are significantly smaller. > stronger privacy protections The EU takes the fundamentally-paternalistic attitude that consumers aren't smart enough to protect their own data, and that government must fill that role for them. I disagree; it's condescending and wrong. > more often than not, when compared to other "western coutnries", the US comes out behind. How do you compare that? As you said, many different ways. I'm getting the sense the things you value in your comparison constitute zero percent of mine. Many of America's issues come from being a large and very diverse nation. Nordic nations have small, homogeneous populations with little unrest. Very easy to govern a nation, keep crime rates low, etc. that way. Nothing comes without a cost. Some nations hide costs better than others. Some kick them down the road.
perl4ever 7y ago
"the rest of the developed world" This phrase is commonly used as though it were most of the global population or economy or something.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  That was a glib comment based on my gut reaction, but in fact, I later looked up figures and the US plus all the countries outside the OECD or "high income" countries (which appear to be pretty similar) are >60% of global GDP and about 87% of world population. So maybe it is a little presumptuous to always speak as though the remainder is the only part that really matters?
ryanmercer 7y ago
>I don’t know, the rest of the developed world doesn’t want to live with gun violence, and they... don’t. Your argument is absurd, though, because most knives and apples aren’t designed to kill people, Yet the UK has some crazy knife laws (and self-defense laws for that matter, I'd hate to have to defend myself in the UK) because when people couldn't get access to firearms easily knife crimes went up. I mean, 2 years ago they had someone drive into a crowd of people and then hop out and start stabbing/slashing >The attackers were armed with 12-inch (30 cm) kitchen knives with ceramic blades, which they tied to their wrists with leather straps. They also prepared fake explosive belts by wrapping water bottles in grey tape https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2017_London_Bridge_attack https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2017_London_Bridge_attack In 2014 in China 171 people were stabbed/slashed in a single attack at a railway station, 31 people died. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2014_Kunming_attack https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2014_Kunming_attack Since 1949 only 3 mass shootings have had higherdeath counts in the United States than the Kunming incident - the Las Vegas shooting in 2017 at 58 dead, Orlando nightclub shooting in 2016 at 49 dead and the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007 at 32 people.

dokem 7y ago

There is no other nation in the world which compares to the US. The US is the world power and it’s citizens have more rights than any other. So you cannot say that what ‘works’ for some fly by night westernized counties will work for the current flag ship of human progress.

wcarron 7y ago
As an American citizen, this is one of the most laughable statements I've heard all day.
- big_chungus 7y ago
  Being an American is not really a rebuttal of the above comment. Neither of you speak for all Americans. America being a world power is factual but not as directly pertinent as other issues. What is pertinent is that America has significantly more diversity than other developed nations. More importantly, there is significant cultural tension between many different groups. Finally, guns have legitimate uses, and are by-and-large used by legitimate people. Per FBI statistics [0], significantly more people were killed in 2016 by knives or alike weapons, whereas 374 deaths by rifle. Certainly handguns represent a larger number, but the current push is against so-called "assault rifles" which are, needless to say, categorized as "rifles" in the referenced data. Is a knife an in-appropriate symbol? [0]: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/table-12 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
  - wcarron 7y ago
    > The US is the world power and it’s citizens have more rights than any other From the GP, that is demonstrably false. Look at German citizenry. They have equal or more rights than American citizens do. > the current flag ship of human progress. Again, this is complete bullshit. Many other nations have better healthcare, stronger privacy protections, better educational systems, more efficient transit systems, higher air quality, lower rates of incarceration. I could go on and on. America is not "the current flagship of human progress" > So you cannot say that what ‘works’ for some fly by night westernized counties will work for the current flag ship of human progress. What is a 'fly-by-night westernized country'? The fuck is that even supposed to mean? It's an ignorant, nationalistic dig at other "Western coutnries" based on nothing at all. > There is no other nation in the world which compares to the US False. Nordic countries have better healthcare, a cleaner environment, better education, better transit, more walkable cities. The EU as a whole has stronger privacy protections than the US. There are MANY ways to compare countries to the US, and, more often than not, when compared to other "western coutnries", the US comes out behind.
    - big_chungus 7y ago
      I think you may have responded to the wrong post; the things you "quoted" from me, I did not say. However, here's my response to your arguments. > Look at German citizenry. They have equal or more rights than American[s]. Source? I'd say Americans are more free. I don't consider "positive rights" to increase liberty; you can't make one more free by requiring another to do something for him to fulfill his freedom. Doctors, houses, etc. are not rights. > better healthcare No, there is _more_ healthcare. Quality, access, and cost are the iron triangle of medicine; pick two. We picked quality and price, and those were good choices. Germany picked universality and cost; they traded some of that cost to the tax payers, and got some quality, but most cutting-edge medical research is in America. > better educational systems Before college, probably yes. I agree we should give fewer hand-outs and allocate more to education. > fly-by-night I didn't use those words; please don't claim I did. It weakens your argument. > Nordic countries have better healthcare Better is subjective; see iron triangle. > a cleaner environment Norway, for instance, makes a huge amount of money off Statoil (now Equinor). They have small population sizes relative to natural resources. This means they export things that pollute and dump that pollution elsewhere. Though Equinor is trying to sequester carbon, it's nowhere near total output and doesn't account for the by-products of O&G production. It is also only from part of one operation, and only removing CO2 from natural gas. Equinor also owned stakes in oil sands, which are absolutely horrible for the environment. Why do I bring this up? To point out that many nordic nations sell resources to others, mine resources in other nations, etc. They rely on negative externalities to pay for their extravagant welfare states. According to the wikipedia article, "Economy of Norway": "Norway's modern manufacturing and welfare system rely on a financial reserve produced by exploitation of natural resources, particularly North Sea oil." (there are four cited sources). > better transit Transit is not a right. America is significantly larger. > more walkable cities That's a right? Also, their cities are significantly smaller. > stronger privacy protections The EU takes the fundamentally-paternalistic attitude that consumers aren't smart enough to protect their own data, and that government must fill that role for them. I disagree; it's condescending and wrong. > more often than not, when compared to other "western coutnries", the US comes out behind. How do you compare that? As you said, many different ways. I'm getting the sense the things you value in your comparison constitute zero percent of mine. Many of America's issues come from being a large and very diverse nation. Nordic nations have small, homogeneous populations with little unrest. Very easy to govern a nation, keep crime rates low, etc. that way. Nothing comes without a cost. Some nations hide costs better than others. Some kick them down the road.

perl4ever 7y ago

"the rest of the developed world" This phrase is commonly used as though it were most of the global population or economy or something.

perl4ever 7y ago
That was a glib comment based on my gut reaction, but in fact, I later looked up figures and the US plus all the countries outside the OECD or "high income" countries (which appear to be pretty similar) are >60% of global GDP and about 87% of world population. So maybe it is a little presumptuous to always speak as though the remainder is the only part that really matters?

ryanmercer 7y ago

>I don’t know, the rest of the developed world doesn’t want to live with gun violence, and they... don’t. Your argument is absurd, though, because most knives and apples aren’t designed to kill people, Yet the UK has some crazy knife laws (and self-defense laws for that matter, I'd hate to have to defend myself in the UK) because when people couldn't get access to firearms easily knife crimes went up. I mean, 2 years ago they had someone drive into a crowd of people and then hop out and start stabbing/slashing >The attackers were armed with 12-inch (30 cm) kitchen knives with ceramic blades, which they tied to their wrists with leather straps. They also prepared fake explosive belts by wrapping water bottles in grey tape https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2017_London_Bridge_attack https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2017_London_Bridge_attack In 2014 in China 171 people were stabbed/slashed in a single attack at a railway station, 31 people died. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2014_Kunming_attack https://www.wikiwand.com/en/2014_Kunming_attack Since 1949 only 3 mass shootings have had higherdeath counts in the United States than the Kunming incident - the Las Vegas shooting in 2017 at 58 dead, Orlando nightclub shooting in 2016 at 49 dead and the Virginia Tech shooting in 2007 at 32 people.