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> After 50 games, however, DeepMind hit a snag. Some players had noticed that three user accounts on the Battle.net gaming platform had played the exact same nu

> After 50 games, however, DeepMind hit a snag. Some players had noticed that three user accounts on the Battle.net gaming platform had played the exact same number of StarCraft II games over a similar time frame — the three accounts that AlphaStar was secretly using. When watching replays of these matches, players noticed that the account owner was performing actions that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a human. In response, DeepMind began using a number of tricks to keep the trial blind and stop players spotting AlphaStar, such as switching accounts regularly. So instead of fixing the unfairness... they tried to hide it?

Nimitz14 7y ago
Funny how they put it as: > When watching replays of these matches, players noticed that the account owner was performing actions that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a human. framing it like the agent was doing some sort insane play, when the reality is the main evidence of a player being alphastar (other than its garbage decision making) was the fact that it wasn't using hotkeys!
- deleted 7y ago
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- ionforce 7y ago
  The correct terminology would be "control groups". The configuration of control groups is visible in replays; AlphaStar's replay data does not have any control groups in it. Though, via its API, it is able to select arbitrary groups of units from anywhere on the map. Personally, I would have loved to see it work through control group management because I think that is something that is important and steals attention away from humans. But probably to the researchers, it is just annoying data to model that doesn't get to the "core" of StarCraft.
Iv 7y ago
To play against alphastar, you have to opt-in. IIRC it states Alphastar will hide itself. One of the things people noticed in replays was the lack of control groups and in the case of zergs, the ability to select larvas directly, which no player ever does. It could have been as simple as removing these quirks.
- vermilingua 7y ago
  For the type of beast AlphaStar is, they do not sound like simple tasks at all.
- v4dok 7y ago
  Nobody selects larvas directly? I guess I am a computer then. Way worse than Alphastar tho.
  - neogodless 7y ago
    Ha! So I always did that in Brood Wars, but in SC2, I put each hatchery on a hotkey (0, 9, 8, etc.) and then just pick the units I want to queue up. No need to select individual larva any more.
    - IpV8 7y ago
      I like to map tilda, tab, and caps lock to 0, 9, and 8 so that my left hand doesn't have to reach as far.
- smolder 7y ago
  New players (like when I first played) are likely to select individual larva before they do tutorials or learn the hotkeys, but you're right that high level players would almost never select one directly. Maybe after a hatchery has died and there are still larva remaining?
  - username90 7y ago
    No, it doesn't select the larvae by dragging, it just selects them instantly from the other side of the map. I'd guess it either has a hotkey for the hatcheries and press it and the larvae key instantly without it showing in the replay, or it has a cheat ability to instantly select larvae.
    - smolder 7y ago
      Oh, interesting. Thanks for clarifying.
floitsch 7y ago
These extremely difficult/impossible things didn't really give an advantage. For example, AlphaStar would sometimes click on an object at the border of the screen. For humans that would be almost impossible, because the screen would scroll when the mouse approaches the border. Similarly, AlphaStar would not play with group hotkeys, but use a different technique. However, in none of the analyses, people noticed things that would give AlphaStar an unfair advantage.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > For humans that would be almost impossible, because the screen would scroll when the mouse approaches the border. That humans cannot reliably perform these actions because of the limitations of our corporeal form means that Alphastar has an advantage over a human player. Limiting APM isn't enough.
  - floitsch 7y ago
    The question isn't whether the AI still has advantages, but whether it's an unfair one. The current restrictions were implemented with input from TLO, and seem to work quite nicely. One could, of course, add more restrictions (like not noticing things on the minimap all the time...), but that's not what's it about anymore. At this point, micro is comparable to humans, and we can start to compare macro and strategy. Fwiw, when I watched some of the replays, I was disappointed by AlphaStar. It's a very consistent player with few mistakes, but it isn't very reactive and definitely not inventive. Instead of switching tactics when things don't work out, it generally continues with the chosen strategy. Often, that's enough: a well executed strategy with few errors often wins, even if it wasn't optimal.
    - MiracleUser 7y ago
      > a well executed strategy with few errors often wins, even if it wasn't optimal I think this is hits the chord with why a lot of people are talking about this bot as cheating more than they are being outplayed. It's like fighting an aimbot in an FPS. They arent outsmarting you, but the mechanical consistency is inhuman and you are unable to force mistakes. At best itll feel like playing someone on their best day. The heart of gaming, and why starcrat2 in particular is popular, is finding ways to play around each others mistakes. Honestly, they should reduce Micro to the point that humans can bully it a little bit. How does the AI handle finding new ways to trade units to its advantage against a mechanically stronger opponent? How does it try to bait the human into having to take fights with unfavorable units / strategy.. as opposed to beating through them with mechanic mastery
missosoup 7y ago
I'm not sure this is unfairness. IIRC they put in a fair bit of effort to put it on a level playing field with humans by limiting APM and not allowing it to observe multiple areas simultaneously by spam moving the camera. It might have some minor unfair advantage in terms of being able to click with pixel perfect accuracy, but they're marginal and from watching this project evolve, it's pretty clear that the strategic planning aspect of alphastar has indeed become better than humans. "Agents were capped at a max of 22 agent actions per 5 seconds, where one agent action corresponds to a selection, an ability and a target unit or point, which counts as up to 3 actions towards the in-game APM counter. Moving the camera also counts as an agent action, despite not being counted towards APM." This is worse micro than top human players.
- plopz 7y ago
  Wasn't blink stalker micro pretty central to its playstyle as protoss, the race it was best at? Why would you say that is minor and marginal?
  - interblag 7y ago
    That was from the version of AlphaStar that they demo'd in the earlier show matches. From what I gathered in the articles over the last few days, they took in a lot of feedback from that and adjusted this to make strategies like that inhuman blink micro less possible...
  - username90 7y ago
    It can no longer do micro like that, I have watched most of its games several times and it never did any micro feat like that again. On the contrary its micro was often lacking compared to humans, it won mostly through very strong timing attacks and uncanny ability to pick when to fight.
    - doc_gunthrop 7y ago
      > It can no longer do micro like that Is that supposed to be an intention in design? I'd figure an AI could easily outplay a human if that weren't the case, given its inherent advantages (e.g. better accuracy, the ability to instantaneously prioritize which units to blink in/out). For example, [this](https://youtu.be/pETcAm82vXU?t=322 https://youtu.be/pETcAm82vXU?t=322) game is one example where an AI could perform even better using such tactics. EDIT: another commenter mentioned it would make the game too unfair, so it was an intention in design.
deleted 7y ago
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Nimitz14 7y ago

Funny how they put it as: > When watching replays of these matches, players noticed that the account owner was performing actions that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for a human. framing it like the agent was doing some sort insane play, when the reality is the main evidence of a player being alphastar (other than its garbage decision making) was the fact that it wasn't using hotkeys!

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
ionforce 7y ago
The correct terminology would be "control groups". The configuration of control groups is visible in replays; AlphaStar's replay data does not have any control groups in it. Though, via its API, it is able to select arbitrary groups of units from anywhere on the map. Personally, I would have loved to see it work through control group management because I think that is something that is important and steals attention away from humans. But probably to the researchers, it is just annoying data to model that doesn't get to the "core" of StarCraft.

Iv 7y ago

To play against alphastar, you have to opt-in. IIRC it states Alphastar will hide itself. One of the things people noticed in replays was the lack of control groups and in the case of zergs, the ability to select larvas directly, which no player ever does. It could have been as simple as removing these quirks.

vermilingua 7y ago
For the type of beast AlphaStar is, they do not sound like simple tasks at all.
v4dok 7y ago
Nobody selects larvas directly? I guess I am a computer then. Way worse than Alphastar tho.
- neogodless 7y ago
  Ha! So I always did that in Brood Wars, but in SC2, I put each hatchery on a hotkey (0, 9, 8, etc.) and then just pick the units I want to queue up. No need to select individual larva any more.
  - IpV8 7y ago
    I like to map tilda, tab, and caps lock to 0, 9, and 8 so that my left hand doesn't have to reach as far.
smolder 7y ago
New players (like when I first played) are likely to select individual larva before they do tutorials or learn the hotkeys, but you're right that high level players would almost never select one directly. Maybe after a hatchery has died and there are still larva remaining?
- username90 7y ago
  No, it doesn't select the larvae by dragging, it just selects them instantly from the other side of the map. I'd guess it either has a hotkey for the hatcheries and press it and the larvae key instantly without it showing in the replay, or it has a cheat ability to instantly select larvae.
  - smolder 7y ago
    Oh, interesting. Thanks for clarifying.

floitsch 7y ago

These extremely difficult/impossible things didn't really give an advantage. For example, AlphaStar would sometimes click on an object at the border of the screen. For humans that would be almost impossible, because the screen would scroll when the mouse approaches the border. Similarly, AlphaStar would not play with group hotkeys, but use a different technique. However, in none of the analyses, people noticed things that would give AlphaStar an unfair advantage.

mieseratte 7y ago
> For humans that would be almost impossible, because the screen would scroll when the mouse approaches the border. That humans cannot reliably perform these actions because of the limitations of our corporeal form means that Alphastar has an advantage over a human player. Limiting APM isn't enough.
- floitsch 7y ago
  The question isn't whether the AI still has advantages, but whether it's an unfair one. The current restrictions were implemented with input from TLO, and seem to work quite nicely. One could, of course, add more restrictions (like not noticing things on the minimap all the time...), but that's not what's it about anymore. At this point, micro is comparable to humans, and we can start to compare macro and strategy. Fwiw, when I watched some of the replays, I was disappointed by AlphaStar. It's a very consistent player with few mistakes, but it isn't very reactive and definitely not inventive. Instead of switching tactics when things don't work out, it generally continues with the chosen strategy. Often, that's enough: a well executed strategy with few errors often wins, even if it wasn't optimal.
  - MiracleUser 7y ago
    > a well executed strategy with few errors often wins, even if it wasn't optimal I think this is hits the chord with why a lot of people are talking about this bot as cheating more than they are being outplayed. It's like fighting an aimbot in an FPS. They arent outsmarting you, but the mechanical consistency is inhuman and you are unable to force mistakes. At best itll feel like playing someone on their best day. The heart of gaming, and why starcrat2 in particular is popular, is finding ways to play around each others mistakes. Honestly, they should reduce Micro to the point that humans can bully it a little bit. How does the AI handle finding new ways to trade units to its advantage against a mechanically stronger opponent? How does it try to bait the human into having to take fights with unfavorable units / strategy.. as opposed to beating through them with mechanic mastery

missosoup 7y ago

I'm not sure this is unfairness. IIRC they put in a fair bit of effort to put it on a level playing field with humans by limiting APM and not allowing it to observe multiple areas simultaneously by spam moving the camera. It might have some minor unfair advantage in terms of being able to click with pixel perfect accuracy, but they're marginal and from watching this project evolve, it's pretty clear that the strategic planning aspect of alphastar has indeed become better than humans. "Agents were capped at a max of 22 agent actions per 5 seconds, where one agent action corresponds to a selection, an ability and a target unit or point, which counts as up to 3 actions towards the in-game APM counter. Moving the camera also counts as an agent action, despite not being counted towards APM." This is worse micro than top human players.

plopz 7y ago
Wasn't blink stalker micro pretty central to its playstyle as protoss, the race it was best at? Why would you say that is minor and marginal?
- interblag 7y ago
  That was from the version of AlphaStar that they demo'd in the earlier show matches. From what I gathered in the articles over the last few days, they took in a lot of feedback from that and adjusted this to make strategies like that inhuman blink micro less possible...
- username90 7y ago
  It can no longer do micro like that, I have watched most of its games several times and it never did any micro feat like that again. On the contrary its micro was often lacking compared to humans, it won mostly through very strong timing attacks and uncanny ability to pick when to fight.
  - doc_gunthrop 7y ago
    > It can no longer do micro like that Is that supposed to be an intention in design? I'd figure an AI could easily outplay a human if that weren't the case, given its inherent advantages (e.g. better accuracy, the ability to instantaneously prioritize which units to blink in/out). For example, [this](https://youtu.be/pETcAm82vXU?t=322 https://youtu.be/pETcAm82vXU?t=322) game is one example where an AI could perform even better using such tactics. EDIT: another commenter mentioned it would make the game too unfair, so it was an intention in design.

deleted 7y ago

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